109 points
*

I love how the propagandists just keep beating the same drum after the Biden administration has constructed a ceasefire deal which has received unanimous UN Security Council support, and did appear to be moving forward until about 14 hours ago. (Edit: It might still, that’s not over yet.)

It’s almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we’d lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s) It’s almost like geopolitics are - wait for it - complicated.

Second Edit: Let’s also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel’s back is against the wall, they’re running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?

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67 points
*

It was unanimous because Russia abstained. Putin loves the refocus on Israel while he continues his genocidal war crimes in Ukraine under the US media radar.

For those who haven’t been keeping up, Russia has abducted 700,000 Ukrainian children to be raised as Russians in foster homes since the war began. It’s genocide on a scale 20 times larger than Palestine, and isn’t making national headlines in the US due to the focus on Israel.

The US formally declared this as genocide in the House of Representatives with a 390-9 vote in April by invoking the UN Genocide Convention, and the ICC has issued arrest warrants. Did you see any headlines about that?

Russia is also the largest investor in the sanctioned Iran economy that is directly funding Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis.

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27 points

I was sceptical of this claim so I did some research - 700,000 is almost certainly too high, but other than that it’s disturbingly true:

The 700,000 number comes from a Russian parliamentarian in 2023, and refers to orphaned and abandoned children Russia has ‘protected’ from conflict zones in Ukraine. A later Russian report walked this back a bit, and claimed that most of this number were children accompanied by family voluntarily escaping the fighting by feeling into Russia.

Obviously we should be sceptical of what Russia says about this, but this is not the same number as the number of children abducted - not even Ukraine alleges it to be this high.

The number of children abducted and forcibly deported was officially reported by Kyev to be 19,000 to 20,000 at the time of the above claim based on the data (nearly 30,000 now). The real number is almost certainly higher - many Ukranian officials believe the actual amount is higher, with one saying it may be into the ‘hundreds of thousands’. A US report in 2022 estimates that Russia has “interrogated, detained, and forcibly deported… 260,000 children, from their homes to Russia”

Even if we take only the low amount that can be fairly positively stated as abductions, that’s nearly 30,000 children. Various reports have shown some of these children being given new Russian identities and false birth certificates, and being put up for adoption in Russia. Some have testified to being indoctrinated and shown pro-Kremlin propaganda.

This broadly constitutes Cultural Genocide - whether it technically is or not is for academics to argue over, because the legal definition of genocide is complicated and so much is unkown.

Whether or not you want to call it a Genocide, it is undeniably a War Crime. The ICC has issued arrest warrents for Putin and Russian Children’s Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova over this.

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9 points
*

Regardless of the number, it was deemed genocide in a 390-9 vote in the House in April, by invoking the UN Genocide Convention.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/us-house-resolution-russian-abduction-of-ukrainian-children-is-genocide/

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14 points

And yet not a peep from these “Genocide Joe” people. They’re either Russian disinformation agents, or useful idiots.

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5 points
*

I get what you’re saying, but I’m pretty damn sure you’re confusing Americans’ inability to focus on more than one issue at a time with the seemingly catch-all “bots!” thing.

Don’t attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to stupidity/ignorance/laziness.

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2 points

Idk why you’re saying “not a peep” when it’s pretty much all we ever talk about in these parts.

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1 point

It seems like the potential for an ethnicity to disappear completely after decades of starvation, oppression, and embargo is a more pressing concern than a war between two competent militarized nations, but yeah I agree they’re at completely different scales in every aspect except funding from third parties.

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0 points

I’m legit not trying to troll here, but I vaguely recall a news story last month where Biden said it’s not genocide. I forget if he was referring to Ukraine or Gaza, but either way I was kind of dumbfounded like wtf.

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4 points

It becomes a game of semantics. “Genocide” is not just a loaded term but it has a definition you can argue against, without disagreeing on the scope of the atrocity. Arguing about whether it fits the definition is just a redirect so we’re not talking about the scale of the suffering

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1 point

He was referring to Gaza. Its amazing the number of lies $12m buys

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-2 points

And you can’t even bring this up as an argument against the “gEnOciDe jOe” kids because it gets removed for “whataboutism” in almost every thread.

They have their agenda pretty locked down

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-40 points
*

“The news is so focused on children trapped in a war zone but they’re ignoring the real issue we should be focusing on: children being safely transported out of a war zone.”

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37 points
*

Russia is taking Ukrainian children, placing them in foster care, and putting them up for adoption to be raised as Russians. This is the definition of genocide.

Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

  1. Killing members of the group
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
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10 points

“The news is so focused on children trapped in a war zone but they’re ignoring the real issue we should be focusing on: children being safely transported out of a war zone.”

Jesus fucking Christ. Imagine being so pro-genocide you make apologia for kidnapping literal children and ethnic cleansing.

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I’m absolutely voting for Biden and everyone should, because he is the best viable candidate on literally every issue, including Palestine.

That said, he has openly and loudly taken Israel’s side for months. As a result, he’s made himself an avatar for all the other US institutions that are openly against any criticism of Israel or support for Palestinians. Even if he has secretly been doing everything he can to stop the killing all this time—which I doubt—he had still fucked up massively when it come to avoiding the blowback from other groups’ attempts to crush anyone who speaks out, including agencies his administration controls.

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16 points

But hey, some rando with literally no national attention is polling at 3% in a couple of safely blue states, so definitely don’t vote for GeNoCiDe JoE! /s

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25 points

Notice how they only ever criticize Biden, and never the Republican party, which fully supports Israeli bullshit?

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9 points
*

Oh I’ve noticed. The way I see it, there are three options when it comes to the “both sides”/protest vote camp, every single one of them is one of the following:

  • a bad faith actor cosplaying as a leftist
  • an accelerationist
  • a misguided idealist who legitimately believes a non-mainstream candidate could win and/or completely disregards the cold hard fact that FPTP means a third party/abstain vote simply endangers the lesser of two evils candidate while empowering the greater of two evils candidate

No matter what I will never stop throwing shade at that crowd hard and heavy. The first two on that list will never change. I do hope, however, that continued social pressure on that last type of person will make some of them realize that voting is just as much a responsibility as a right, and consider that maybe there’s a good reason their views are so unpopular.

Edited after a good point made by samus12345.

Also I noticed the single downvote on every one of my comments. I know who you are lol. Glad to see I’m still living in your head rent-free.

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6 points

To be entirely fair, the Republican party does a good job of criticizing themselves.

Consider that a lot of the discourse you’re seeing is from people who already believe the democratic party is the lesser of the two evils they’re probably going to vote for them regardless.

If you’re engaging in a conversation with someone else, whose only tangible difference between the two of you is that one of you believes Dems are a-okay, and one believes that both parties are shit, the only real talking points they have are what the Dems do that aren’t great.

Obviously I don’t think this is every case, but I know that if I wasn’t already primed to have THIS argument, that’d probably be the route it’d take.

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2 points

That is why every time someone brings up Genocide Joe, I bring up Turbo Genocide Donny

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2 points

Biden is the fucking commander in chief.

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2 points

Republicans don’t pretend to care they wear their bigotry on their shoulder, Democrats are covert in their bigotry and their racism that’s why they are often called out for it

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0 points

I’ve noticed they will have a little tirade if you ask them what is the logical consistency that they support China despite being “against” Gaza genocide in a way that means they couldn’t possibly vote for harm reduction.

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-3 points

I’ve been pointing that out all the time. They’re never on any posts critical of Trump. Only anything about Biden. It it’s critical, they’re there to agree- if it’s positive, they’re there to shit all over it.

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-2 points

Is that Jill Stein? She barely scraped past 1% of the popular vote in 2016, less than 1/3 of fucking Gary Johnson.

Oh but this time, this time Dems will learn a lesson and turn full leftist 2028. There’s no risk either since muh both sides are dictators so it’s equally bad either way.

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-1 points

I think there was some guy from California that was recently polling (yes polling, not locked in votes at all) around 3% in a handful of states and some of the both-siders were breaking their arms jerking each other off about it. I don’t remember the dude’s name, for the obvious reason of his candidacy being completely unviable.

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14 points

It’s almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we’d lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s)

How is this distinct from the current situation, where Israel has killed at least 35,000 people, is starving around a million more, shows no signs of changing course, and also we are giving them bombs to carry it out?

The time to start applying gentle pressure was about 8 months ago.

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12 points

Well said.

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8 points

Have the weapon shipments to Israel stopped?

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2 points

No, neither has the money

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1 point

There was another similar ceasefire a couple of months ago that got vetoed by Chairman Xi Jinping, as well. They say any ceasefire proposal which includes complete release of all Israeli hostages is unacceptable, for some reason.

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1 point
*

It’s almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we’d lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement

No kidding huh, I can’t believe people don’t see this. You want to influence Israel? You can’t do that if you cut off communication and shun them.

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22 points

Not continuing to provide them with weapons of war while they are actively committing genocide is not cutting off communication and shunning them.

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-7 points

That’s on congress, not Biden.

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1 point

Does that apply to all countries the US has differences with?

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1 point

Israel’s pack is against the wall against… Hamas?

They managed to push those bastards back, before they’ve destroyed the Gaza strip.

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14 points

What do you think happens when Israel’s back is against the wall, they’re running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?

Do not misrepresent what you know full well I am talking about.

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16 points
Deleted by creator
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2 points

They’re running out of conventional weapons because they don’t have the resources to flatten Gaza?

The demand is to stop the genocide, not to demilitarize Israel.

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3 points

Against Iran. Which is Hamas’ big brother.

(This comment is not approval of Israel’s actions)

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2 points

The protests don’t ask for Israel not defending itself. They demand a stop to the revenge-rampage Israel is carrying out.

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1 point

It is complicated. I don’t bother acting like I know what’s going on, I just accept that there is guaranteed to be more complicated reasons than what we are often given. This means the problem is extremely simple:

Critical Thinking Skills and willingness to challenge one’s own beliefs.

Which is a strong reason why far too many people continue to parrot the same arguments. Biden could at this point cause an act of God to occur, reset the timeline, and if people remembered we’d still be hearing it.

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0 points

It’s almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we’d lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s) It’s almost like geopolitics are - wait for it - complicated.

Which would end up with Israel in a war not just with Palestine but probably other countries in the region. And something I feel people forget: Israel has nuclear weapons but doesn’t acknowledge them. Which means we don’t have a great idea of their nuclear capability. So if Israel’s existence is being threatened, there’s a good chance to ruin that part of the world for generations and/or start WW3.

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5 points

Are you saying that if the US stops sending Israel weapons, they will likely start a nuclear war? Bruh

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0 points

If Israel is fighting for it’s survival and it has nukes? Uh yeah? That’s why no one’s itching to invade Russia even though they are a LOT weaker than expected.

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-1 points

Second Edit: Let’s also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel’s back is against the wall, they’re running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?

Sounds like Russia.

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-2 points
*

Great work on the peace deal, fellas. I think we can treat ourselves to another 20 billion of bombs to Israel to celebrate.

Second Edit: Let’s also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel’s back is against the wall, they’re running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?*

Should we allow Russia to just run over Ukraine? They have the largest nuclear arsenal on Earth. Who knows what happens when their backs are against the wall.

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-2 points

I don’t really disagree with you, but I do unironically think we should have invaded Israel months ago.

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79 points

Both sides do suck. but only one is trying to get an orange dictator elected. I’m still voting Biden. Democrats aren’t perfect but it’s the only choice we have.

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37 points

You elect Biden to live another day to fight him, you vote for trump and you shoot yourself in whatever genitals you have before we go full dictator for life, immunity for all crimes (and none of those things for you)

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28 points

This. I f*cking HATE having to vote for Biden. I’ve hated voting for Democrats for the last 20 years. But I’ll vote for him this year because right now, our choices are between boring corporatists and 100% concentrated evil. I may hate my government but I love my country and I don’t want it to end.

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5 points

He’s not 100% evil. You have to have some kind of drive for that. He’s just the most self-centered person I’ve ever seen. He’ll turn the US into a dictatorship only because it’s convenient for him for the rest of his years.

I believe every other President in my lifetime would have given their lives to prevent that.

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-1 points
*

The part I don’t get is complaining about a politician being boring. Isn’t that a good thing? If a politician is doing their job, admittedly a huge if, there’s no need for drama, outrage, noise

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10 points

You elect trump if you watched Civil War and thought, fuck yeah that looks fun, want that.

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5 points

If you thought, “that looks fun” you’re a sociopath and walking proof of the impact of Republicans dismantling mental health care infrastructure in the US for the last several decades

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64 points

The only person who can so militantly cling to the idea that both sides are exactly the same is the person for whom the outcomes are exactly the same.

IE the person who needs to do a lot more shutting the fuck up and listening to the people for whom this shit is life and death.

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5 points

I’m sorry, English isn’t my first language. First paragraph is kinda confusing for me. Could you please elaborate for me? Thank you.

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7 points

Basically I’m saying that only someone who’s completely insulated from the lived experience of inequality could be capable of so strongly believing that both the democrats and republicans are exactly the same, because only someone so insulated would have a lived experience in which democratic and republican governments could even remotely feel the same.

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5 points
*

All of the replies to you are complicated, so here’s a simple summary: The poster implied that a person who doesn’t see the difference between Trump and Biden probably wouldn’t be hurt by any of Trump’s policies or goals.

For example, a transgender person may lose access to hormones and a gay person may be unable to marry or adopt a child. Poor people may lose food stamps (money given for food) and old people may lose social security (money given at old age).

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2 points

Exact-a-fucking-lacty.

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-7 points

The only person who can so militantly cling to the idea that both sides are exactly the same is the person for whom the outcomes are exactly the same.

Destruction Of Black Wealth During The Obama Presidency

When you have an incoming president who campaigns on dramatic reform and a return to an egalitarian social policy, but delivers large bank bailouts, record rates of foreclosure, and a slew of legislation designed to beef up the police in the midst of wave after wave of street protests, why would you expect this voter base to stick around?

Dems love to talk about FDR as a big political reformer, but what they often neglect was his success as a partisan party builder. Guys like Clinton and Obama and Biden come into office thinking their voters owe them something for kicking the Republican out. Guys like FDR, LBJ, and Reagan come into office thinking their voters need to be rewarded for delivering the vote.

the person who needs to do a lot more shutting the fuck up

How many times do I see people whip their dicks out in the middle of an online forum and tell their opponents to STFU?

How many times has it ever worked?

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7 points

At least one more time based on your comment.

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4 points

Not enough times, clearly

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63 points

I do think there is a constructive way to talk about how both sides accommodate the interests of the ruling class. We are at the point where our choices are corporate shills and fascist corporate shills. I am going to vote for the non-fascists every time, but don’t tell me I am harming the conversation when I expect the corporate shills to be better too.

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57 points

Sure, both sides are not the same. But the “good” side is still part of the system that allows the “bad” side to exist.

So by all means, vote for the party that will do less damage in the short term. But oppose FPTP voting at the same time.

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