86 points

Plenty of people thought that Don Draper and Walter White were heroes.

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39 points

Walter White was an antihero. The US healthcare system was the villain.

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61 points
*

The healthcare system was just a catalyst for his transformation into Heisenberg. He had multiple opportunities to stop during the first seasons. His greed and pride wouldn’t allow him to do so.

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16 points

I’m pretty sure the rush of it was his addiction.

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6 points
*

In all honesty, I haven’t watched it again since it first came out. When did he have opportunities to pay for his treatment? I don’t remember that. I definitely remember the megalomaniacal development that you mention in his character arc.

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18 points
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No. Regardless of the healthcare system, White had the option of going to the people at Grey Matters and asking for help. There were plenty of times he could have just walked away with a boatload of cash. He was a cold blooded killer.

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6 points
Deleted by creator
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7 points

They dropped the whole cancer plotline by season 2.

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16 points

Plenty of people thought that Don Draper and Walter White were heroes.

In our defense, I’d like to say that we have been living in a society that has been teaching us from birth to worship - no, fetishize is a more accurate term - the Don Drapers and Walter Whites of this world for hundreds of years now.

It’s not an excuse… more just a mitigating factor that should be taken into account.

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8 points

Walter White was a classic anti-hero. He started out with a just cause, and was ultimately corrupted by the power brought on by his own self righteousness.

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14 points

I disagree. White had a simple choice; he could go to his old partners at Grey Matters and ask for help or he could get involved with murders. He never had a just cause, just the desire to prove he was smarter than everyone in the world.

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9 points

There’s important context about his old partners though: Walter was in love with one of them when she betrayed him, got with the other guy and then they cut Walter out of the same company that Walter’s research turned into a mega success.

Was Walter prideful about their offer to pay for his cancer treatments? You bet. I probably would have been as well in the same situation.

Was he prideful there because he wanted to be a drug kingpin? I don’t think that was his primary motivation.

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9 points

Go back and rewatch. He knows exactly what he’s doing from the very beginning. He has chance after chance to get out. Each time he makes the choice to double down, knowing that what he’s doing will hurt somebody, and he does it all for his own self aggrandizement.

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7 points

Draper wasn’t as much a villain as White. Draper was just a fraud.

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7 points

I’ve seen people unironically and without self-awareness admire Draper and want to “be like him”. I don’t get it.

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76 points

They never did figure it out. They had to be told. Conservatives are really bad at seeing the obvious much less any level of nuance.

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40 points

That would be because, by and large, conservatives are fucking stupid

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9 points

That’s what happens when you tout that learning and education is bad and for the devil.

It’s a huge swathe of masses who envies the knowledge of others and fears that they do not understand. Rather than admit their faults they double down on “learning is for dummies”

Don’t get me wrong, there are many learned republicans, but the smartest ones are the ones who get elected. They fuck everybody else over for their own gains while being worshipped.

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6 points

Obviously.

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7 points

I just said it plainly so they, too, can understand.

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1 point

I’d say lazy more than anything. If you asked one about what is actually in the bible they’d get all offended over having to do the work of reading it in order to defend it. They’d just sink into staunch reaffirmation without lifting a finger.

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6 points
*

Conservatives love pastiche. So they can just take shit at face value and have a great time.

No introspection, because that would ruin the fun.

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3 points

Wait, what is this about? Are you saying that there are some people who can’t figure out that homelander is the bad guy? Can you point me to one of these people?

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2 points

Just go look through any The boys discussions and you will find those that think he is just doing whats necessary. There you have been pointed.

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-1 points

Just go look through any The boys discussions

I just had a discussion about it with my friends, some of which are conservatives, and none of the people there were confused as to him being a bad guy, so you’ll have to be more specific than some vague waving around in the air.

That being said, I get that people might side with him. Just like people side with the joker and Tyler durden. But how do you know they’re conservatives?

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-1 points

I don’t it’s solely conservatives that have trouble seeing the obvious.

But maybe I’ve spent too much time on lemmy arguing with tankie socialists.

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-3 points

I disagree. It’s the most obvious you can get, like judging a book by the cover without even reading the blurb on the back of it. Why open the book when what it’s about is obvious? No effort, analysis, or thought required.

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63 points

Reminds me of my stepfather who is deeply conservative and an huge supporter of the military but his favorite movie is full metal jacket. I’ve tried to discuss what he thinks the point of the movie is and it seems like he never got past the “it looks cool” part.

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24 points
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You can’t have a good war movie that’s also a parody, because people just take the cool/funny parts as approval of the atrocities.

And nothing is safe. You’ll have sitting American Congressmen putting out hacked up Attack on Titan videos with zero context, because David v Goliath is just a cool image and you want to make teenager shock troops fighting hideous (((monsters))) on top of a big wall look Based.

Your enemy is always an existential threat and doing war crimes is incredibly cool. So yay fascism!

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15 points
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A huge portion of American men are only as tough as the things they own.

In Texas they call it “all hat no cattle” Skaters just call them “posers”

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11 points

It’s like Paul Ryan (Republican politician) being a Rage Against the Machine fan. Even the band members were like dude, you don’t get it.

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1 point

I remember really liking their music on the radio when I was like 12-14, and I knew my conservative parents wouldn’t buy my that record. With Rage Against The Machine on the front and songs about cops being kkk, and homeless people hanging out with the ghosts of guys who died for the working class, and saying “wake up” but not like in a ‘‘you gotta get ready for school’’ type of way. No sir. They wouldn’t be down. You don’t have to know much to understand they weren’t talking about the washing machine.

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4 points

Growing up, one my my classmates favorite movies was FMJ, but yeah he was super conservative and said his dream was to die for his country. Idk what goes through these people’s minds.

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51 points

Pick up a US or World Hstory book as an adult and two things will dispel the illusions you may have about Americans and the human race: First, the rest the world hates us for very good reasons, and the things we did on a smaller scale in previous centuries are now much more widespread. Second, our species is infinitely more capable of evil than you were made to understand.

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8 points

The rest of the world doesn’t hate the US. Most of the world is just kinda annoyed at how Americans can be ignorant and very loud about it.

I go to Vietnam and see people wearing Captain America T-shirts. The Vietnamese would have good reason to hate America, but they generally don’t.

America is mostly hated in just the fashy parts of the world where the government tells people that everything is America’s fault to avoid responsibility. And even then I think it’s mostly just to loyal minions that actually hate America.

Just get rid of the Electoral College so we don’t have to worry about Bushy Trumpy Presidents anymore and we’d be all good.

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1 point

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u-s/

US viewed favorably by the rest of the world is at 54%.

Unfavorably only at 31%.

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-24 points

The US wasn’t even close to the worst offender when it came to imperialism or colonialism though. In fact we were quite bad at it, and actively stood against it for much of our history. The US actually played a big role in getting the European powers to give up their colonial claims after WW2.

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39 points

This is just a quick list I can think off the top of my head: the trail of tears, slavery, Jim Crow laws, fighting Mexico to gain the west coast, fighting Spain to gain the Philippines, Florida, Cuba, and Puerto Rico, deposing democratically elected governments in Central and South America for cheaper bananas, isolating Cuba from the rest of the world when it turned communist but still keeping possession of Guantanamo Bay, putting down the Boxer Rebellion in China, invading Middle Eastern countries for their oil, fighting the communists in Korea and Vietnam, deposing the Hawaiian government and then annexing it for cheaper pineapples, and leveraging its position at the end of WWII to solidify its hegemony throughout the world via the petrodollar. I’m sure there are plenty of other things I’ve forgotten. The only other imperial power that would compare is England up until WWII.

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30 points
*

Britain (which you mentioned), France, and Spain all have pretty awful imperial histories too. Not saying that to diminish the atrocities of the US by any means, but let’s not pretend the rest of Europe didn’t get up to some bullshit.

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8 points
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fighting the communists in Korea and Vietnam

I would add dropping most of the bombs left over from WWII (literally!) on Vietnam’s neighbors because reasons.

The only other imperial power that would compare is England up until WWII.

This is underselling Spain which wreaked havoc in the Americas (and elsewhere - like the Philipines) for centuries before they got supplanted by us in the havoc-wreaking department.

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3 points

Wow. That’s a long list.

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2 points
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A lot of this firehose is pretty marginal. The Boxer rebellion for example, the US was a minor player. Puerto Rico won self rule via the US fighting the Spanish so it’s kind of weird to quote both. Also Spain is in NATO. Korea was a UN action. Hawaiians voted to become a state to escape the plantation owners from imposing new feudalism. Nobody is saying the US is without sins but these pale in comparison to things the major European powers did.

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4 points

The US wasn’t even close to the worst offender when it came to imperialism or colonialism

LOL, what a super apologist argument.

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5 points

Seriously. Here’s a map of US military installations across the world, plus the US has a stranglehold on large portions of South America. They may not treat everyone as poorly as the British did, but they sure love to kill brown people to get their natural resources.

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3 points
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An appeal to hypocrisy doesn’t hold water here. Also, getting the Europeans to get rid of their colonial claims opened those former colonies up to our economic and strategic exploitation. There was nothing altruistic about it.

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2 points

Ikr? As if anyones trying to dress up “removing the competition” as a good or noble act.

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48 points

So I haven’t watched after season 2. What did Homelander have to do for conservatives to realize he’s not the good guy?

Did he become an environmentalist or something? Because sociopathic narcissism, kidnapping, mass murdering innocents and being an allround asshole didn’t do that, not even mentioning his literal nazi girlfriend.

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65 points

I don’t think it’s Homelander’s actions so much as Kripke saying in interviews that he and the writers are trying to be as obvious as possible that Homelander is the bad guy and based on Trump. And following up by saying if people think Homelander and his followers are role models then those people are not the fans they want.

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32 points

The fact that he had to spell it out loud because media literacy is dead and most people are incapable of reading nuanced subtext is appalling. Some people actually believed that it was nothing more than a gory satire of Marvel and DC comics.

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12 points

It stopped being nuanced after season one. Each season since has been an exercise in how far they have to go for some people to figure it out.

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29 points

It’s more that this season they have abandoned almost all the nuance and are really rubbing their face in it. There was a whole episode about how Homelander supporters are big into all the conspiracy shit that modern conservatives are

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2 points

They have a guy hold the place up demanding to know where the kids in the basement are lol They definitely abandoned any subtlety about who they’re making fun of.

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US Authoritarianism

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