lemm.ee

1 point

26 days ago

So In this specific instance, the specific instance we are talking about, the instance that is the topic of this discussion, no one.

The obvious follow up question is, if he were rolling up the tinted windows so he could retrieve a weapon without the cop seeing, or if he had taken off at high speed in his little sports car and run a high speed chase before crashing, could multiple people have died?

I’ll just give you the obvious answer, “yes”.

The reason your answer is naive isn’t because cops don’t do terrible things, they do, and they should absolutely be held accountable. It is because cops are also often on unpredictable situations and if you can’t look at something like this and see where pulling him out of the car could be justified, you can’t argue in good faith where the line is between this and a true abuse of power.

And if you can’t do that, the people in power will never take your argument seriously, and your will continue to be largely ignored.

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WhatTrees@lemmy.blahaj.zone

[ - ]

1 point

25 days ago

Police don’t get to act on every imaginable what-if, they must act reasonably based on the specifics of the case in front of them. Watch the video again and pay attention to the time in the body cams.

The officer knocks on the window and the driver rolls it down and hands him his paperwork while complaining about the knocking. As the officer goes to walk away the driver rolls the window back up. The officer tells him to roll it back down, the driver opens it some. The officer tells him not to roll it up again or he would be taken out of the car. Within 7 seconds the officer changed his mind, ordered him out, and then dragged him out.

Important notes here. 1) not rolling the window all the way down or rolling it back up while the officer walks away are not illegal acts. There is no case law saying you must roll it all the way down and leave it down. 2) while it’s down the officer could see inside and did not note any obvious safety concerns. 3) he wanted the window down while he was walking away and couldn’t see inside anyway. 4) the driver never refused exiting the car and was not given a reasonable amount of time to comply. He said something like “just a moment” when asked once and was dragged out within 7 seconds. 5) the officers don’t later say that they had a safety concern, they say “when we tell you to do something you have to do it” in reference to the window, which again is not an order backed up by case law unlike the order to exit which again was not refused and not given reasonable time for the driver to comply.

You could always imagine a what-if that lets the cops off, but that’s not the way the courts do or the public should view these cases. The primary officer was unreasonable at almost every point. Later in the video he points to a 25ft law that isn’t in effect yet and then says that he has suddenly changed it to 50ft. He was on a power trip because the driver didn’t immediately show him proper deference.

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[ - ]

1 point

25 days ago

That’s a lot of words to admit you have trouble finding common ground so that people can make meaningful change.

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WhatTrees@lemmy.blahaj.zone

[ - ]

1 point

25 days ago

Oh definitely, and the way we get that change is by instinctively supporting the officer’s decisions because of a thousand imagined what-ifs. Of course that officer had to shoot Sonya Massey because she might have thrown the water at them while cowering with her hands up. She might have had a wmd under her night dress! /s

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[ - ]

0 points

25 days ago

Again, I’m not talking about any instance other than the one we have been looking at together here. Personally, I believe cops should always assume they are going too be on trial every time they shoot someone they should know it is always going to be a potentially life altering event for them.

I’m this case, the driver didn’t say “oh buddy, you fucked up, see you in court” while complying, he showed the officer his distain and reluctance every step of the way and at that point the officer is going to ask themselves if they might be in danger, and if they think they might be, they are trained to do something about it. In this case taking him into custody.

Question for you. If he wanted to, could he have shot the cop? Was there a gun in the car?

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WhatTrees@lemmy.blahaj.zone

[ - ]

1 point

25 days ago

You’re implying here that he failed to comply with lawful orders, which ones exactly did he fail to comply with? As I outlined before he was ordered to not roll his window back up again and he did not (even if he had, that alone is not a lawful order as no case law or Florida law allows an officer to order someone to roll it all the way down and keep it down for the duration of the stop). He was ordered out of the car (a lawful order as outlined by case law if the officer has reasonable suspicion that he is armed and dangerous. The officer makes no claim to the driver being armed and dangerous, much less having reasonable suspicion of such. This was not an armed robbery stop) and within 7 seconds was dragged out of the car. The driver never said no and was not given time to comply. While you must exit when ordered (again, if the officer has what he needs to make that order lawful), it is not reasonable to drag someone out after only 7 seconds.

If he had failed to follow lawful orders, why didn’t they charge him with that?

Having distain or reluctance are not illegal acts and are not grounds for reasonable suspicion that someone is armed and dangerous. While a person intent on hurting officers would likely have distain, they would be more likely to act cool and calm until they pull out their gun as to keep the officer from sensing a threat and reacting to it. There are also far more people who have distain for officers and do not which them harm. It is not objectively reasonable for an officer to believe that every person who does not show them sufficient deference is a safety concern, especially not a sufficient concern to justify physical violence against them.

If he had wanted to, why wouldn’t he have already done it? Why didn’t he pull out a gun (there is no indication by him or the officers that a gun was involved)? Why wouldn’t he have tried harming them as they pulled him out? Again, your what-ifs are not relevant to a discussion about the reasonableness of the officer’s actions. An officer doesn’t get to do whatever he feels like as long as he can imagine a possible harm.

Take a look at all of the officer’s actions and attempt to see them from a reasonable person’s perspective. He pulled over a guy for speeding, not armed robbery. He got upset only after the driver rolled the window up as he was walking away. He gave the driver only 7 seconds to respond before using physical violence. He punched the driver while he was handcuffed. He lied about a 25ft law and then expanded it beyond what the made-up law would allow. After 18 minutes of having him in handcuffs, he only started to write the citations, the whole reason for the stop, when a supervisor asked him if they were already done. Officers can only hold a personal as long as it would reasonably take to accomplish the goal of the stop, in this case to write the tickets. Every step of the way, the officer acting unreasonably. I don’t care if you can imagine a different scenario where he might have been justified. In this case he was not.

You’re arguing that we should defer to the officers because of a million imaginary what-ifs. That’s not how this works.

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[ - ]

0 points

25 days ago

While a person intent on hurting officers would likely have distain, they would be more likely to act cool and calm until they pull out their gun as to keep the officer from sensing a threat and reacting to it.

You make a great point. I can see why cops would be on edge and would rather risk taking someone into custody unnecessarily rather than putting their life at risk. Based on your reasoning they would probably be hyper vigilant for signs a stop might go wrong. Given an employers responsibility to provide a safe workplace, they are probably trained to err on the side of caution, right?

Take a look at all of the officer’s actions and attempt to see them from a reasonable person’s perspective.

A rather obvious diss and strawman argument, but I see your point. What you are ignoring though is the reasonable person who is employed as a cop. If you had that job, how much would you be willing to risk death on a daily basis to give people the benefit of the doubt?

He punched the driver while he was handcuffed. He lied about a 25ft law and then expanded it beyond what the made-up law would allow. After 18 minutes of having him in handcuffs, he only started to write the citations, the whole reason for the stop, when a supervisor asked him if they were already done.

So sue the fuck out of him! That’s what the courts are for. That’s a separate issue from whether the cop decided he was non-cooperative at a level that warranted intervention.

You’re arguing that we should defer to the officers because of a million imaginary what-ifs. That’s not how this works.

That’s the whole point of qualified immunity. Cops are the ones willing to wade into the shit on a daily basis. They put their lives on the line, so they get the discretion to decide they are going to cuff you for the rest of the interaction if they feel unsafe.

If they break the law, sue them. If policy is bad, lobby for change. People wrote the laws, people set the culture, people can change it. But just whining online that some sports guy you like wasn’t treated as politely as you would have liked is like having a quick wank, it makes you feel good, but won’t change anything.

If you think you can do better, go apply for a job with the force, show us what the police could be. If you are going to let someone else do it so you don’t have to take the risk and can sit safely at home whining about it. Sure you can get some attention, but you aren’t going to be taken very seriously.

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