What I like about this interview is that it demonstrates the absurd, thought-terminating clichés that modern elites use…and Acemoğlu just steamrolls them. Like this:
DER SPIEGEL: But it is true that humankind has indeed benefited a lot from new technologies.
Acemoğlu: That is the reason we have to go so far back in history. The argument that you just gave is wrong. In the past, we’ve always had struggles over the uses of innovation and who benefits from them. Very often, control was in the hands of a narrow elite. Innovation often did not benefit the broad swaths of the population.
There was no argument. A sentence does not an argument make. But regular people trying to argue from a similar perspective would say “…well, yes, but…” whereas Acemoğlu is just like “Nope. You’re wrong.”
Edit: After a several hours and many responses, it demonstrates that the terminating cliché of “…but humanity has benefited from progress” isn’t a counter-argument. What are the premises of the asserted conclusion? Had Der Spiegel been more clear about how he’d arrived at that conclusion in context, the conversation would’ve been significantly easier to follow. So, remember that: don’t just assert shit; explain yourself.
I am sorry, but I am not buying his point. Every technological change that had significant impact on our economy (fire, iron making, machinery, electronics, computers, internet) benefited most of the people. I challenge you to name even one counter example.
But that’s not the point. It did have a significant impact. Acemoğlu’s point is about the distribution over time of that impact. Elites tend to accrue for themselves the benefits of technological change.
In terms of AI, it makes some people more productive that others. So, right now, only some people are benefiting from the introduction of AI. Jobs with a $1 million salary are being advertised to replace striking Hollywood writers. It’s easy to say technological change creates winners and losers as I learned in my econ classes. But in the midst of such change, how long winners remain winners and losers remain losers matters a great deal to both.
In other words, the transition to cleaner energy sources puts coal miners out of a job until the sun goes out and the wind stops blowing. And it’s foolish claim the trade for higher quality air and a decline of associated respiratory illnesses is worth a miner’s despair and depression because they’re forever unemployed, their skills worthless.
You are making very different argument, with which I actually agree. But his point was counter argument to the statement that technology benefited us in the past. And his counter argument is bad and just wrong.
AI is nothing like what was in the past. That should be the argument, not that in the past technology did not benefited us.
Nuclear weapons, the maxim gun, lead paint, lead gasoline, basically all lead-based products, thalidomide, CFCs, the electric chair, agent orange, asbestos, oxycodone, zyklon b, refined sugar, high fructose corn syrup, disposable plastics, cigarettes, trans fats, …
I think @PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com is doing a great job of pointing to the actual substance of the argument, so I’ll leave that to them, but it’s actually really easy to come up with a long list of technological horrors that absolutely did not benefit most people but had huge impacts on our economy.
I do think “impact on our economy” is a pretty squishy phrase that’ll give you some wiggle room, but many of these nightmare technologies are inextricably and inseparably tied to the way we’ve structured our economy. Likewise, I think it’s easy to define “technology” in convenient ways for these kinds of arguments, but also ends up being circular pretty quick.
Yes, arguably I was talking about technologies that had paramount impact on economy on the level AI will have, and none of those can be considered like this.
I have also answered to PeepinGoodArgs about windmills.
Ahh the the cynics hindsight. I’ll just leave with you’re right but you’re far more wrong. The advancements will always come, no matter the form, those highlighted led to enlightenment on the benefits AND dangers that we were unaware of. We refined them increased our understanding of new risks making them easier to avoid and ended up better off while furthering our understanding . All a knowledge that benefited us further than just it’s application to better humanity with knowledge.
I can, totally, see AI only benefitting the people who own the code and make policies for it. Despite the fact that it may be used to “benefit” most people, the ones who will benefit the most are the people who own it. Similar to targeted ads. It’s a multi-billion dollar industry that gathers insane swathes of information on individuals, and that information is bought and sold to the highest bidder. You could make the argument that it’s easier to buy shoes online, but is it worth having literally everything about you sold to whoever is willing to buy it? It’s usually a ruse crafted by people with the ability to profit off of others, making the majority think they’re benefiting in some minute way.
What Acemoglu is saying is fundamentally a Marxist argument, and I’m saying that with no value judgments attached, I’m just pointing out factually that he’s essentially saying the same thing as Marx. In summary, technology tends to disproportionately benefit the people who can afford to implement it (the owners). AI is a means of production. While it’s currently possible for anyone to download the means of production for free, no violence required, currently you’ve got several large AI companies (like OpenAI) trying to pull the ladder up behind themselves under the guise of safety and ethics concerns. They’re trying to protect themselves from the tendency of the rate of profit to fall by angling to limit the pool of competitors. Indeed, much of whether a technology benefits society at large is dictated by the barriers to entry to using that technology. If they are successful, the barriers to entry will be made much higher, and it will all but guarantee that the benefits of AI stay at the top.
