“We need to take it by force” does not necessarily follow “They won’t give up power voluntarily”. People with civil war fantasies need to have a sit down and have a long fucking think about what that implies. What we need to do is revive a culture of labor solidarity that we’ve allowed to wither since the heyday of labor unions in the country.
One billionare showing up publicly lynched or drawn and quartered will get the rest in line. If not, two or three dozen more will do the trick.
No. What will happen is the rich will surround themselves with more security and will have a legitimate reason to be more aggressive towards who they consider a menace. If you want to change society, get involved in politics, involve those who think like you, and be patient.
It would give them more power. You wanna see what psychopathic minds given a reason to work together and given victim cards can do? I don’t.
The rich are brought in line by denying them of power, not feeding them more power by offering reasons for them to get protected even more.
You wanna go that route, be prepared for a lot of collateral damage and extended times of hardship.
Yall realize many of the rights we have as laborers now we’re won with force… Right?
Like, yes collective bargaining, labor solidarity, etc. is super important (which is also a form of force) but there were literal armed conflicts between laborers and the police on behalf of companies.
I’m not saying we need a civil war, but let’s not pretend we won our rights today without bloodshed.
Edit: Left out a key word, whoops.
I’m saying we need a civil war, but let’s not pretend we won our rights today without bloodshed.
Oh, I didn’t mean it like that. More that using force as the tool of overthrow is fundamentally a mistake. Obviously in any sufficiently powerful labor movement there will, inevitably, be those who attempt to use both legal and illegal force to disperse them. Force is thus necessary to defend the other processes of labor solidarity - forming unions, protests, strikes, lockouts, etc.
Many people, not all of them unreasonably, will side with the system in the case of a violent revolution, though. When a shooting war starts, you can’t un-shoot the bullet once you realize the death toll will reach the millions - it will be carried on to its gruesome end, and that may not be to a left-wing victory.
For those who think that a revolution would have overwhelming popular support, for God’s sake, a third of the country still believes nonwhite and LGBT folk are inferior, and another third doesn’t fucking care. Supporting a violent leftist overthrow is not gonna be on the agenda for them, no matter how much theory you’ve read and how solid your arguments about their exploitation are. The last third will be difficult to convince - not unreasonably, considering the value placed on democratic ideals and processes.
And the situation is similar, if less severe, in other developed countries at this time.
Fwiw I did mean to say, “I’m not saying we need a civil war.” Though, honestly, I’m not saying we don’t either. It just wasn’t really the point I was trying to make in that moment.
I think I more or less agree with you though. Violence is not necessarily my first choice, but it’s naive to think the opposition will listen without it. Or at the very least the threat of it.
The reality is that our power structures heavily favor the owning class, and they’re not going to hand over that power laying down. Collective action and such is of course the first step, but as you mentioned force will be used to dispurse labor movements.
If we can’t keep them without killing each other then we are just repeating a cycle. But freedom of choice is more important than forcing politics and beliefs on people just so they cooperate. Me nor anyone I know is going to engage in murder just to get my way. I did my part, I have no kids to perpetuate the cycle. Stop providing the machine with fodder and the issue solves itself.
There’s no cycle. That’s the whole problem. They made money the most important thing, required for life, then took all the money and sat on it. There’s no cycle. Yesterday they had the money. Today they have the money. Tomorrow they will still have the money unless the people of this world do something about it.
We might not seek violence, but it’s coming for us if we organize in any way that has a chance to succeed. The history of the last century has been violent crackdowns on labor organizing. From Pinkertons and cops at home to CIA coups and full on military blockades abroad.
We do need to get everyone organized for anything to happen, but we do have to be ready for when that crackdown comes for us.
And yeah. That’s fucking terrifying and I’m pessimistic enough to not really think we have that much of a shot at winning. But it’s wishful thinking to imagine that we could get to the future we want just by playing nice within the system that’s keeping us here.
Yeah it’s like… they’ve got a boot on your neck and you’re worried about you hurting them? Where’s your worry about the people they’re hurting right now?
Aside from that, revolutionary goals don’t even require violence per se. If the people who set this shit up would recognize the will of the people and step aside there’s no need for violence, but you know they’re gonna fight to their last breath to keep the power to hurt and control others. The violence is starting with them.
Organized labor can demand all profits. Then the game of choosing the best investments doesn’t have any winners. There isn’t even money available to invest.
The elite is defending that game because it’s our source of optimizations. Is there a better alternative so that they don’t have to play?
There’s a vast gulf between ‘playing nice’ and ‘use force to overthrow the elite’. There were great strides made in the heyday of labor organization in the 1880s-1930s. There can be great strides made again. The elite are not some organized cabal of rulers plotting against us - they are selfish people who got where they are by being exceptionally selfish. They don’t want to preserve capitalism - they want to preserve themselves. They can be pressured. They can be bargained with. Most of them are rational - that’s their weakness. They’ll accept deals that are good for them, or that they perceive as such, even if it weakens the system as a whole. For God’s sake, we have the best educated generation to ever exist on the face of this planet - planning and bargaining are what we’ve been toiling our miserable white-collar lives around. All we lack is solidarity.
It’s not as satisfying as heads rolling down the streets of Paris - but it’s never just the elite who die in such scenarios. We should be ready for such an occasion as civil war - but it should also be a last resort.
All those strides came with the aforementioned violent crackdowns and the gains were short lived. Leaving the power structure in place and merely trying to bargain with it for a few more scraps left capitalists with the power they needed to erode those gains. And again, to the extent any progress was made, it was within the imperial core. All those other people around the world who were being exploited by international capital didn’t enjoy any of the benefits of the bargaining that went on here.
You have to ignore a lot of the reality of history to believe in the story of peaceful incremental progress.
I think it’s pretty clear that the rich are not rational actors and neither can they be trusted.
Force doesn’t necessarily imply bloodshed, but forcing them to give up what they have against their will definitely implies force - I think we’re well beyond the point of simple persuasion.
I mean, I actually believe that it won’t be accomplished without bloodshed - but there’s a world of difference between ‘civil unrest’ and ‘civil war’, and I see people fantasizing about the latter far too often. Force is the tool workers use to prevent the use of overwhelming force against the workers - but using it as a tool of overthrow itself is… often strategically unsound, unless matters have already spiraled into chaos.
This is where supposedly communist regimes tend to go wrong - they skip straight to revolution without taking the necessary preparatory steps to do things like level inequality and shore up democracy. This just means that the wealth and power reconsolidate almost immediately into authoritarian state capitalism or similar - generally a worse state than preceded it, and definitely not communism.
The force is necessary though.
