lemm.ee

1 point

1 year ago

Are you trying to suggest that you don’t want to argue? That you might be open to learning something new?

Wait, wait, let me do your part

Maybe if you could actually tell me something new. Instead, all you presented was a njknbfddscjjuhbjoiubffrdsdvnki

Sorry, I spaced on the last bit but it’s always a mad libs of haughty insults.

Okay my turn: can you possibly imagine being wrong in any way? Have you ever been wrong about anything?

Now you: you’re a sad individual who’s trying to distract from your total lack of an argument. I completely proved you wrong in every way and you know it.

Then me: so that would be a “no”

Then you: fuck off, troll

Then me: lol

That’s usually where this ends. Hopefully saved us a few back and forth.

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SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca

1 point

1 year ago

What is it you think I’m going to learn from anything you’ve typed? The only thing you seem to want people to “learn” as that you’re right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong without you providing any kind rational reason for this.

You stated that it’s the nature of fascism for there to be no real plan. I stated that Hamas has no real plan other than to use nationalistic and genocidal fervor to remain in power. We’re seeing genocidal actions being celebrated (or at the very least rationalized) by Palestinians. I don’t see a lot of Palestinians outright condemning the actions of Hamas, either out of sympathy for them or out of fear of them. This is suggestive of a fascist society.

You could blow my argument out the water by explaining what the long term plan of Hamas is. But there is none. Because they’re fascist and having power over people is the goal.

So instead of anything countering long list of fascist characteristics of Hamas and Palestinian society, it’s just “YOU’RE WRONG WHY DON’T YOU ADMIT IT!!!”

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2 points

1 year ago

You could blow my argument out the water by explaining what the long term plan of Hamas is.

Really? You promise?

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SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca

0 points

1 year ago

Sure but with the caveat that it’s a plan that will actually work (not just propaganda material) and it’s not just a callback to the “glorious past” of the Crusades (which is also propaganda).

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

2 points

1 year ago

Think pre-crusades

The charter states that “our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[4][5] It emphasizes the importance of jihad, stating in article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”[6] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they “stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region”.[7] The Charter adds that “renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion [of Islam]”.[1] The original charter was criticized for its violent language against all Jews, which some commentators characterized as incitement to genocide.

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the “Zionist enemy”.[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates “liberation of all of Palestine”.[14][15] The new document also states that the group doesn’t seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for “occupation of Palestine”.[16] Mashal also stated that Hamas was ending its association with the Muslim Brotherhood.

By far the central objective is a Palestinian state that encompasses all or most of present day Israel and the defeat or obliteration of Israeli Jews. It is a very clear objective that hasn’t wavered in its central premise, just in scope.

To put it simply, they want a Israel to be a Muslim caliphate. It’s a very clear long term goal, and their plan to get there is jihad. And it’s a sincerely held goal, not just propaganda (though they do of course use propaganda to further that goal).

Notably, their goal is solely regional, not endlessly expansionist like most fascist regimes.

Another, separate massive difference from fascism is the lack of strongman political organization:

The governing body is the Majlis al-Shura. The principle behind the council is based on the Qur’anic concept of consultation and popular assembly (shura), which Hamas leaders argue provides for democracy within an Islamic framework.[70] As the organization grew more complex and Israeli pressure increased it needed a broader base for decisions, the Shura Council was renamed the ‘General Consultative Council’, elected from members of local council groups and this in turn elected a 15-member Politburo (al-Maktab al-Siyasi)[71] that made decisions at the highest level. Representatives come from Gaza, the West Bank, leaders in exile and Israeli prisons.[72] This organ was located in Damascus until the Syrian Civil War led it to transfer to Qatar in January 2012, when Hamas sided with the civil opposition against the regime of Bashar al-Assad.[72][73]

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SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca

0 points

1 year ago

So you’re saying wanting to obliterate Jews is evidence they are not fascist?

Do you always take fascists at their word? Do you think charters and constitutions are always 100% the true intentions of the writers?

And even the excerpts you compiled have fascist rhetoric all over the place.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.

Call to violent fervor. But the kind that sounds vaguely religious!

renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion [of Islam]

They’re demanding people to consider their political cause to be a religious cause. Not even being subtle about it. “We declare that blood and soil is a religious thing!”

To put it simply, they want a Israel to be a Muslim caliphate.

Again how are they going to actually accomplish this? How is Hamas going to actually going to overpower the IDF? Do you think that’s an actual real possibility?

Since Hamas isn’t actually capable of doing this everything they claim they want for a future government is pure fantasy and just propaganda designed to help recruitment. They can offer everyone unicorns, blow jobs, and endless lines of coke once Israel is defeated. Whatever brings in recruits.

The governing body is the Majlis al-Shura

You mean that bullshit that allows the Hamas leadership to live large off of donations from bitter Arab billionaires outside of Palestine, safe from any risk from the IDF while their people get killed when the IDF retaliates against their rocket attacks? Form hierarchical power structures is a fascist thing too. And which of Majlis al-Shura, General Consultative Council, and Politburo are religious in nature? Ah yes the great Politburo, that’s keeping in accordance with the Islamic traditions!

Basically it’s just all blood and soil shit, with a heaping helping of we will go back to Islamic tradition (someday! ;)) but first die for us in our never ending conflict with those evil people over there! Because Islam and stuff, yo.

They’re not quoting religious texts, not mentioning any religious sites. Not giving any religious justification for what they’re doing. They’re just saying “this is a religious struggle because we said so!”

And I can’t stress this enough, these are the words of fascists, you can’t swallow the things they say as if they’re dealing with people truthfully. Like all fascists they give lip service to religion to legitimize their power.

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2 points

1 year ago

Do you think charters and constitutions are always 100% the true intentions of the writers?

I mean if you want to go there, then you can argue that literally anything is literally anything. Hamas is actually communist. Hamas is actually anarcho-capitalist.

When Hamas says they want to eradicate the Israeli Jews and establish a Muslim caliphate in Israel, and all of their actions support that claim, I believe them. Why wouldn’t I?

Basically it’s just all blood and soil shit, with a heaping helping of we will go back to Islamic tradition (someday! ;)) but first die for us in our never ending conflict with those evil people over there! Because Islam and stuff, yo.

Correct. Which is not fascism. It’s religious zealotry.

They’re not quoting religious texts, not mentioning any religious sites. Not giving any religious justification for what they’re doing. They’re just saying “this is a religious struggle because we said so!”

Yes, they absolutely are, they do it all the time, they can barely go 3 sentences without quoting Mohammad or the Quran. It’s just not directly reflected in the Wikipedia article much. Check the sources though.

They are true believers. Sure, they also want power and they are also vicious racists, but that is secondary to their (particularly violent) interpretation of Islam and jihad.

And I can’t stress this enough, these are the words of fascists, you can’t swallow the things they say as if they’re dealing with people truthfully.

Totally circular reasoning!

You: “they’re fascists”

Me: “no they’re not, and here’s proof from their own words”

You: “you can’t trust anything they say because they’re fascists!”

It’s Russels Teapot, it’s proving a negative, it’s conspiracy theory logic. Any proof is just dismissed as lies. And how do you know they’re lying about not being fascists? Because they’re fascists, and fascists lie!

They’re just not, dude. They’re terrible, but there’s many different forms of terrible. They’re not all fascism.

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