I think that the idea of men looking for woman in the modern world for relationships has made so many men waste time looking for women.
In my eyes, men in the modern world would have to met a crazy high expectations by woman, in order for them to have a relationship with them.
MGTOW would liberate men to live their lives free of the expectations of woman and they can focus on improving themselves or having fun generally.
Also the other thing that I think that MGTOW had gotten right is the fact that by making a lot of men abstain from relationships with women, the society would have to change in order to return to healthy relationships.
Just a quick note here: by peaceful MGTOW I mean that group of men that decided to go in their own way to either have their freedom or to improve society in forming relationships, I am for sure don’t support the movements which supports woman hate or discrimination.
Also a second note here: most of what I read about MGTOW comes from the reddit community before the ban, right now from what I can see most websites and online forums about this topic is nowhere to be found as far as I can search.
In my eyes, men in the modern world would have to met a crazy high expectations by woman, in order for them to have a relationship with them.
Women are just people too. While there are certain high maintenance women (just like there are high maintenance men), there are lots of women that want the same things out of a relationship as many men:
- mutual respect
- a supportive partner in life
- be emotionally available
- shared life goals (want kids/don’t want kids, similar religious or political beliefs)
- mutual effort into maintaining the relationship
- have some traits (not just looks) that are attractive. Examples like humor, wit, depth of thought, compassion, empathy, selflessness. This is usually wrapped up in a single word “Personality”. Be someone worth being with.
However there’s another set of requirements that are usually a baseline requirement to most women:
- a partner who is capable of taking care of themself without the help of others
- you have your own income that covers all of your expenses
- you can put a roof over your head
- you can feed yourself (not just order takeout, but prepare a basic moderately healthy meal)
- pay your bills on time
- perform basic hygiene on your body
- be able to wash you own laundry
- pick up after yourself
What is outside of these lists that you’re qualifying as “crazy high expectations”?
MGTOW would liberate men to live their lives free of the expectations of woman and they can focus on improving themselves or having fun generally.
What exceptions of women are you referring to that prevent men from improving themselves?
Also the other thing that I think that MGTOW had gotten right is the fact that by making a lot of men abstain from relationships with women, the society would have to change in order to return to healthy relationships.
What are the “unhealthy relationships” you’re claiming exist today that you believe a widespread men’s abstinence would change?
Just a quick note here: by peaceful MGTOW I mean that group of men that decided to go in their own way to either have their freedom or to improve society in forming relationships, I am for sure don’t support the movements which supports woman hate or discrimination.
“improve society in forming relationships” is really creepy language. Assuming those relationships include with women, it sounds like you want to dictate the terms of the relationships irrespective of what women would want. To prevent myself from making a bad assumption, feel free to describe what you mean here in practical terms.
As a semi-but-not-actually-contrarian addition to what you have written here:
I am a guy. And I have, unfortunately, had many relationships with women that failed on something like half to all of those bullet points, these relationships did not work out.
Obviously this does not mean that all women are somehow hypocrites.
And obviously I was not perfect either, tends to be pretty uncommon at least for me personally to find someone who can withstand my often ‘too blunt to the point of sounding like I am trying to be cruel when Im not actually’ style comments that come from my autism.
It means that my autistic ass is a romantic fool who falls in love with irresponsible people for the charms they do have, and I do not see the warning signs until its too late.
There exist tons of women who meet all or most of those bullet points, obviously.
In conclusion: Your bullet points there are not even specific to women, by sex, or by gender.
They are simply basic attributes that, when enough are not present in any committed relationship between any two people, very very often lead to failure.
One could even say that, in this regard, men are victims of a patriarchal society that strongly reinforces the idea that a man should overlook such failures because it is their /job/ to provide, and that its possible for women who claim to be feminists to actually not be and just be using that as a shield.
But again, and obviously, many people are capable of being massive hypocrites in many regards.
Just because I am a romantic sap and have personally had bad luck doesnt mean /all women are hypocritical liars and bad!/.
That is not evidenced. Its just my personal experience of not seeing red flags until they are too late.
And that can happen to anyone, regardless of born sex, gender preferences, sexual preferences, etc.
As I see it, there is not really any need for men to go their own way.
What there does seem to be a need for is something like emphasis in some part of society on the gender and sex neutral elements of a personality and life that constitute being ready for a healthy committed relationship, vs the red flags that often indicate instability and duplicity.
And I mean real education, not the millions of insane TikToks vastly and dangerously misrepresenting these things.
In conclusion: Your bullet points there are not even specific to women, by sex, or by gender. They are simply basic attributes that, when enough are not present in any committed relationship between any two people, very very often lead to failure.
You’ve got it. I made those two lists to highlight that many men and women are looking for the same things because all of us are just people. Realistically, the second list has nothing to do with romantic endeavors. The second list is just aspects of being a functional adult. Which, if a person is missing those, they will have a difficult time attracting an adult mate.
One could even say that, in this regard, men are victims of a patriarchal society that strongly reinforces the idea that a man should overlook such failures because it is their /job/ to provide, and that its possible for women who claim to be feminists to actually not be and just be using that as a shield.
Woah woah woah, where the heck did THAT come from? You went completely off the rails here.
I think you’re leaning too much on this incomplete idea:
And obviously I was not perfect either, tends to be pretty uncommon at least for me personally to find someone who can withstand my often ‘too blunt to the point of sounding like I am trying to be cruel when Im not actually’ style comments that come from my autism.
…and…
But again, and obviously, many people are capable of being massive hypocrites in many regards.
Long term relationship are founded on the bedrock of putting up with each others shortcomings, and possibly eventually finding value in those shortcomings. This doesn’t mean putting up with abuse, nor being a doormat. Healthy boundaries are important. However, if anyone thinks they’re going to find the perfect mate that does everything they want, and nothing they don’t want for the entirety of their long-term committed relationship (marriage?) then they are living in a fantasy land. Here’s a secret: Your mate has to put up with you too and all of your crap. This is where the following bullet from my first list comes up:
mutual effort into maintaining the relationship
Relationships are work! Its work to continually seek understanding from your mate, and make sure you yourself are communicating. Its anticipating their needs and them doing the same for you. Its being strong when they are weak, because there will be days when you are weak and they are strong for you. Its hard. Its frustrating at times. You don’t get everything you want, but neither do they. You have to change some things about how you do things because those ways may have worked fine in a one-person household, but cause chaos in a multi-person one.
What there does seem to be a need for is something like emphasis in some part of society on the gender and sex neutral elements of a personality and life that constitute being ready for a healthy committed relationship, vs the red flags that often indicate instability and duplicity.
Here’s the thing about that. We don’t come out of the womb knowing how to be anything. It takes us about three decades to have a pretty good idea of who each of us are, and become functional adults. We learn in our early adulthood by making mistakes, realizing our actions have consequences, and deciding for ourselves what kind of a person we want to be. All of this is usually wrapped up in the phrase “mature adult”. In short, most of our 20s are a shitshow of us testing ourselves and growing up. Hopefully you’ve got your shit together by your 30s, so not only you, but your prospective mates have a much better idea of what they want out of a mate in life and are committed to getting that.
And I mean real education, not the millions of insane TikToks vastly and dangerously misrepresenting these things.
Each generation defines what is generally acceptable for themselves. So if the generation prior established a standard, it would likely be rejected by the next for being insufficient or out-of-date. You’re not going to get what you want out of a classroom and a textbook. Human beings are just so much more complex than that, and social constructs are always evolving.
