The people in these threads never have an alternative. They are drunk on righteous fury and just want their clarity of purpose to result in clarity of action. To do this, they flip the classic logical fallacy on its head and have to argue, “the means justify the ends.” Voting against Biden to them is an unassailable means, wherever the ends lead.

Sanders 2016. Americans still defending the system tho ¯\(ツ)/¯

Nah, only half as strong.

Candidate A and Candidate B.

Vote for A: Candidate A has 1 vote

Vote for B: Candidate B has 1 vote

Vote for neither: 0 vote for either. Midway between the two outcomes.

That being said, voting for neither doesn’t make much sense for anyone in terms of outcome. If you prefer one outcome, it doesn’t make much sense to only use half of the strength of your vote to support that outcome.

Not voting makes more sense if you’re making the argument that the time spent voting isn’t worth the return you get.

No, it’s not. For the record, I’m a huge advocate of voting. I think everyone should vote for the candidate they believe in.

To be clear, I was directly responding to someone who was claiming that not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I hate that rhetoric and it’s not true. If you want to blame someone for Trump winning, you blame the people that voted for him.

If Biden is polling to lose and Trump ends up winning, you’re also supporting Trump by backing a losing candidate and handing the election over to Trump.

Comservativism is a race to the bottom; its a naturally implosive idealogy. Yes, America will be better off in the long term (read: more than five years) once the Dinocrats are put out to pasture and the MAGAts kill each other in a power vacuum after Trump kicks the bucket. America needs a revolution - any revolution - and the Dems are married to the status quo. I think most actual leftists in America are waking up to the idea that they are a dead-end for actual change and the only possible route for things to get better is by weathering a decade of Trumpism and building new from the damage that is promised to bring.

hey I see and appreciate you, I’m also trans, I literally research justice initiatives for LGBTQ+ and specifically trans* individuals in the USA

but my friend, can we please not compare what’s happening to us to what is happening to Palestinians? This makes us look like ignorant assholes

Trans people might be next in line for literal genocide, but right now we’re experiencing ideological violence more than physical violence

In fact, when we closely examine violence against trans people, the rates of murder and physical violence are only elevated for trans individuals who are poor and people of color. White, middle class trans people are actually less likely to experience physical violence than non-trans poor POCs. That could change depending on political winds, but…

Right now, people in Palestine are experiencing something horrific and unprecedented that eclipses trans suffering in the USA. I am right there with you, afraid of the march of fascism, afraid of what another Trump presidency might bring for our community. But I am not getting airstriked, starved, and war crimed right now. My children are not being shot in the head. I can write about these issues online and in my professional life and not get hung for it. It’s just not the same.

So we’re just completely changing the subject?

Just seriously ask yourself if you want Trump to be president again. If the answer to this is “No”, the look at the data and see how Joe Biden is doing. He’s doing fucking horribly. He’s losing this election and we haven’t even had the convention yet. His support is very low and is dropping. If you insist on proceeding with Biden as candidate, you are insisting on a losing proposition.

If you are concerned about queer rights, you better figure out a better option than Biden, because by the numbers, he’s not going to win in November.

so biden is currently presiding over and doing nothing to stop two genocides? and you want to reward that with an unconditional vote of support, so that next time democrats are in office, they’ll know that people don’t care?

But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.

Isn’t that exactly what you’re arguing for? The guy currently in office, who you want to re-elect, is the one presiding over both of these genocides. How the hell does re-electing him make things any better?

The United States was the sole veto of a ceasefire 20 days ago.

American support in this is not a significant factor in the outcome.

If it wasn’t for US support of Israel, Israel would be north Egypt.

Do you realize that you’re arguing against yourself here? Claiming that “it wouldn’t make a difference whether the US supported Israel or not,” makes it look so much fucking worse that Biden is refusing to drop support for this genocide. This is incredibly tone deaf.

Haley.

All you care about is beating trump right?

Sanders.

Once Biden steps down all the nevertrumpers will jump on board.

Oh, not the party loyalists like yourself who would rather back a losing candidate than allow a winner to run in their place?

Have you ever stopped to consider how someone could find a bloated, orange maniac more appealing than the guy you’re trying to shame everyone into voting for and what that says about your political views?

Point taken on Shawn Fein. He is the UAW president, and got Biden to come down to the picket line.

But overall, almost 100% agree. I don’t see any current Democrats with ‘enough’ of the right stuff to get handed the reigns and win. Its why I’m looking outside the party. I really think if Jon Stewart were to throw his hat in, he could win. He’s young enough, he doesn’t have the baggage that an existing candidate has, people know him, he’s a darling of the left. He’s been politically active although he hasn’t run (point against I supposed, but not a deal breaker. Didn’t stop Trump did it?).

Biden has blown this campaign with his position on Israel. He needs to drive voters out, and he’s pulling a classic Democrat move of just assuming that the support for him is there. The ship is sinking. This is a five-alarm fire moment. He has no opponents in this primary and is losing support. You don’t win elections like that.

If the liberals are going to keep insisting that we support Biden even though it becomes more and more clear as time goes on that he isn’t going to win, I don’t know where that leaves us. I don’t want to suffer through what Trump will do to this country. If Trump wins, I’d be shocked if we even have elections again. Expect every non-cis person in this country to be rounded up and executed. I don’t think its hyperbole to suggest that. I think the right would do that today if they had the power.