Edited title to match articles title.
Iāve been tracking the comments on all of this across various websites to see what peopleās thoughts are. This genuinely might be the most contentious issue of our age. There are people who are vehemently pro Palestine and can dismiss the loss of civilian lives asā what do you expect when people are pushed like thisā . Then others are hugely pro Israel and see this as an unprovoked attack by a terrorist group and any retaliation is justified.
I think everyoneās shitty here. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They use terrorist practices and target civilians. Thatās a terrorist organization. Thereās no discussion on that point. Israel is a right wing authoritarian state that regularly commits war crimes. The total Palestinian body count far exceeds the death toll from this attack by orders of magnitude so we canāt pretend like Israel was minding its own business and was attacked.
I donāt think you can point to one or the other as being the true hero or the true victim. Itās the greatest grey area of all time.
I absolutely condemn the Palestinians and Hamas for this act. I absolutely condemn the Israelis for their continued mistreatment and violence towards Palestinians. One will say they only act this way because of the behavior of the other. But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start and end.
The only thing that is certain is that there will be far more blood shed and every dead Israeli will be met with 10 dead Palestinians. I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict. And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it. With the US protecting Israel no other Arab countries will dare intervene militarily. If the Israelis occupy Gaza itās going to quickly become a quagmire with a never ending insurgency. It will be costly and in ten years Israel will be more unsafe then they were today.
Thereās no good answers or good parties here. Just disgusting human nature and the consequences of half baked racist geopolitics from the 40s.
But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start
The Brits
Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration basically created the political climate of the Middle East.
Basically, the British and French decided that the Arabs were too stupid to figure out borders and squiggly lines that followed lame things like āshared cultural heritageā and āsimilar religious beliefsā were far too complicated.
I did some digging today because I was curious on what led to the Balfour Declaration, and what led to that, and so forth. The only thing I have to add here is there were geopolitics involving a separatist Ottoman sultan, and it seems the British wanted to create a sphere of influence for themselves in the area through a Jewish population (Catholic Church gave France influence, Orthodox Church gave Russia influence). Zionists were happy to work with them.
That begs the question then, how did the Zionist goal of a Jewish homeland start? The furthest I could trace it back to was Russian pogroms of Jewish migrants. The pogroms led a Jewish intellectual to contend that the only way for Jews to live freely and respected was an independent Jewish state. There was a zeitgeist of a enlightenment for Judaism at the time as well which asked questions about culture and religion and identity.
I have yet to go back further from there. It seems like oppression and discrimination against Jews during the middle ages could be a significant factorā¦ and that would probably draw us back to the Romans in Jerusalem.
At this point, shitās just fucked. The idea of a Jewish state, the creation of one, and what led to the originating idea span centuries and several nations. And having a Jewish state is central to this whole issue. I donāt think history has an answer for us here.
Thatās a foolish assumption. Plenty of countries have strong reasons to weaken Israel, and plenty of other countries have strong reasons to support them.
Russia and China are spreading as much propaganda about this as the the US and its allies, guaranteed.
Do you have LITERALY any proof for this or is this baseless assumption. I can tell you the PRC through there statements and actions are being PAINFULLY middle of the road in there efforts to remain nutral in the middle east, and I am sorry but russia is no supper power, and it also, as you may or may not know has bigger things to worry about than trying to propogandize over a war over opressed people who have been subjected to a genocide striking out.
Need I remind you the language that Isnātreal is using in relation to the Palistinians, or what they have done for the past decades. No only one side is mobilizing an astroturffed army, and it sure as hell is not the palistinan side.
FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALISTINE SHALL BE FREE
Pretty much the only unbiased take anyone can have. Both sides f*cking suck. I disagree that this is the turning point tho. Weāve been here before and weāll stay here until both sides come to the table and actually discuss a peaceful resolution to the conflict. Itāll never happen with hamas so they have to go. Itāll never happen with the current Israeli government so they need to be replaced with more diplomatic leaders. Neither is gonna happen tho, the continued conflict just puts more dependence on the bad actors that keep escalating it. Honestly I see hamas cracking before Israel softens but who knows if or when thatāll happen. I wouldnāt be surprised if this conflict continued far beyond my lifetime.
I disagree that this is the turning point tho.
Turning point, no, but I can see this being, in retrospect, an erm fulcrum point. Like what 9/11 did to the US, where the question āwhy do they hate usā, besides further idiocy, also led to some legitimate insight into how the USā actions affect the world and provoke reactions, similarly the notion āwe bred that monsterā might get some more wide-spread traction in Israel.
ā¦and yes this very much is a 9/11 moment for Israel, worse, actually. Caught completely on surprise, the most Jewish deaths and that in a short time-span since the Holocaust, much larger percentage of the population, itās definitely a defining moment.
This is why I mainly blame the US and Europe at this point.
Both sides in this situation are controlled by the most disgusting kind of sociopath and the only way to stop this is real (with teeth, not just bullshit talk) international pressure on both sides.
Instead there is real pressure on one side only, by declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation (which they are), whilst without pressure on the other side, the boot of Israel on Palestinian necks creates every day new people with nothing to lose, for whom joining an internationally labelled terrorist organisation is an actual step-up from their situation.
So the worst kind of Israelis have nothing to lose from joining the military or colonates and stealing from and murdering Palestinians because there are zero international sanctions on it, the Israeli authorities fully support it and they have overwhelming force, whilst the worst kind of Palestinians have nothing to lose from joining Hamas and murdering Israelis because they have nothing to lose since the actions of the above mentioned Israelis have made their baseline situation be āa life of misery treated as less than humanā and even made any organisation that resists Israel (even one as bad as Hamas) be relativelly prestigious and an actual step-up for many in that environment.
Unless the āsolutionā envisioned by US and European leaders is genocide of the Palestinians, then both sides have to be put in a situation were they do have something to lose by doing what theyāve been doing and that means keeping on the pressure on Hamas and extending the sanctions to the Israeli government.
Why are you blaming just US and Europe? Why do Russia and China get a free pass? Russia gives support to Iran and Iran directly supports Hamas. China deliberately plays both sides while doing nothing to fix the situation. Nobody is actually trying to fix the whole situation but somehow only US and Europe are to blame. Iām not against being critical of the EU and US (there are things to be critical about), but letās not act like theyāre supposed to be the world police. We have other countries who could also work towards a solution, ideally in cooperation with US and EU, but they seem to be more interested in blaming āThe westā than actually solving the issue.
Itās because most people on Lemmy are from those US, EU, or ācommonwealthā countries, so thatās about all we have influence over. Also Russia and Chinaās democracies are not looking so hot these daysā¦ what kind of pressure is a citizen of one of those countries expected to have anyway.
In my country I can go to a government building and take a huge dump on a picture of our elected leader, and I may get thrown in jail, but Iāll probably be released after a slap on the wrist.
I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict.
Agreed.
And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it.
Yea, I donāt think the two-state compromise is even possible even more. Israel wonāt tolerate even letting Hamas stick around, so Gaza will be leveled. As for what will happen to the civilians; Iāve not a clue.
It goes back even further than that when you look into why Zionists wanted a Jewish state in the first place. I did a deep dive today trying to figure out the origin of the conflict and the original victims and aggressors, and I ended up in Revolutionary Russia before calling a quits for the day.
I donāt know what an ideal solution is at this point, nor what an actually viable solution would be. I wonder if it would even be better for the issue to not end instead of continuing on the path itās on. The way things are going, the only place weāll end up is with one of the sides completely wiped out. :/
I suspect this will be the turning point of tbe conflict. I donāt know that we are going to walk Israel back from the full on attack.
The reality is as long as there are Palestinians alive there will be a terrorist network operating in their ranks. Israel could offer an olive branch and stop their oppression of the people but that hatred runs deep and it wonāt be long before thereās another attack and we are back to where we started.
Thereās no good solution at all. Thereās only the question of when does a military action in response to a terrorist act swap from righteous retribution to a genocide. Because short of genocide the Israelis can do nothing but occupy the territory and deal with an insurgency which will only breed more terrorists as all the fatherless sons grow up hating Israel and want to enact their revenge.
At this point a forced migration might be the option with the least bloodshed, as repulsive as it is. Then you run into the problem though that Palestinians are still shunned by the Arab world because being them being Muslim isnāt enough to override antisemitism from their nationality.
Ironically I think we might need another mandated āthis region is now the home of Palestiniansā like with Israel if theyāre going to have a peaceful place to live.
For the record I donāt like any of these solutions. But like you said weāre quickly approaching the point where Israel may permanently end the conflict through the genocide of the Palestinians, and thatās the absolutely least desirable outcome.
Which is why the Palestinians need to recognise the writing on the wall decades ago and pushed to settle somewhere else where it isnāt a lost cause. They canāt just keep turning their people into combatants and not expect to be suppressed for it.
Israel isnāt going anywhere, it will take more than the Middle East to force them and even then, they already have nukes.
They canāt just keep turning their people into combatants and not expect to be suppressed for it.
Steps canāt be skipped when they threaten the security of Israel.
Where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to settle? The Israelis took their land, homes, and businesses, so a great many Palestinians are impoverished. Many canāt afford to move. Itās not like the Palestinian government can just purchase land and build new cities elsewhere as itās poor too. If the Palestinians were to all move to any other country, theyād largely be refugees, reliant on their host country for food and shelter, which is a huge financial drain. Who is going to take and care for all of them?
And if they were to move, Israel would take over the evacuated area. Itāll be enough for awhile, but the population is ever growing. Who will Israel invade next?
Didnāt the Palestinians also āevictā all Jewish people? They went to Israel because they were refugees. It was about the same amount of people who fled from both sides. The only difference is that Palestinians grew from under a million refugees to more than 5 million by now. That is why they want Israel. Where would you have the Jewish people go? The Hamas want all Jews gone.
And if they were to move, Israel would take over the evacuated area. Itāll be enough for awhile, but the population is ever growing. Who will Israel invade next?
That is so bad faith. There is plenty of dessert left to expand into.
Where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to settle? The Israelis took their land, homes, and businesses, so a great many Palestinians are impoverished. Many canāt afford to move.
A great start would be to stop all this militant jihad nonsense and concentrate on stability and engaging with the Israeli economy. If you keep having thoughts of causing harm to Israel, why would anyone on their side want to employ you people.
Quit shooting yourselves in the feet.
Do you think a Palestinian passport makes countries welcome you with open arms?
Israel isnāt going anywhere
Great, they should help out their Palestinian citizens who are obviously suffering.
You know why their passport is weak? Because everywhere they went and got absorbed into the general population, they fermented revolution against the country they were in.
They did it to themselves.
Itās clear that Palestinians are not interested in peace with Israel, so why ask for help?
Ahh, the good old āUkraine should make territorial concessions for peaceā style of āargumentāā¦
Because history has shown that conceding territory to Israel or Russia is such a great way to stop them from coming again later, killing more people and ābe willing to stopā for more territory.
I donāt know how this will do anything but result in another attack. Making people that desperate is not a solution that will work well. Plus, my fellow Jews should know better than intentionally starving desperate people.
I have a feeling that was the plan all along
Intentionally antagonize the Palestinians thatās already been antagonized for decades ā¦ push them over the edge to make them make the first move.
Then once the first move is made ā¦ move in and completely annihilate them under the guise of justified retaliation.
When it comes to one of the most well organized, well trained, well funded militaries and intelligence organizations in the world ā¦ I donāt think anyone can surprise them with a major attack.
The Israelis knew this would happen ā¦ because they know how they will respond.
Thousands injured, almost a thousand murdered and hundreds kidnapped including women and children sounds like āthe planā to you? Iām not saying theyāre saints but how can you say a country would go to war as a PR move just to see their already antagonized enemies suffer? This attack was planned for about a year with the help of Iran on a shabbat, alongside a rocket barrage to keep soldiers from mobilizing and joining in to help, but you honestly believe Israel were the ones who planned this.
Itās not a traditional plan where everything is controlled.
Itās an orchestrated set of circumstances where you place your opponent in a difficult situation and force them to make the first move.
Then when your opponent makes the first move, you can carry out what you want without being blamed for starting anything.
America did it in 2001, and Israel is at least as morally bankrupt as the US.
The idea that the guys in government in Israel care for the lives of a few thousand people is as funny as it gets.
I mean werenāt Israelis recently demonstrating because these very same people wanted to destroy the independence of the Judiciary, which is required for it to function as a Pillar of Democracy, so in effect wanted to undermine Democracy and spread autocracy in Israel from a problem only of people with Arab Citizenship to people with Jewish Citizenship (yeah, Israel, uniquelly amongst ādemocraciesā has a concept of citizenship with associated rights which is separate from nationality).
You canāt seriously belive such people care for a few thousand lives, no mater their nationality, especially if their deaths can be turned into a way to hold on to power and escape Justice (howās Bibi process going?).
I mean, even if they just had a general retaliation plan in case this ever happenedā¦it is hard to believe Israel, with all its Western support, didnāt see this coming. And they have been bombing Gaza indescriminatly for years, with the only justification being āWell, Hamas was there, probablyā¦ā
ļæ¼starving Palestinians out like this, will force them into the desperate move attacking Israel. Israel can therefore declare them as terrorists and shoot them indiscriminately.ļæ¼ ļæ¼ļæ¼ļæ¼ I hope that Iām wrong and this isnāt a tactical decision
Exactly, what did they think theyāll achieve but even more resentment and hate?
I honestly donāt know, but Neteyahu is one of the most evil people in the 21st century, so I have very little hope for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of this.
Some people are bandying about some statistic out there of a majority of Palestinians approving of Hamas. First of all, that was before this happened, and secondly, approval is not the same as aid. The vast majority of them had nothing to do with this and are caught in the middle. Now at least 500 are dead in this current conflict.
Not just Palestinians, innocent Israelis are going to die from these decisions. I was following the judiciary saga in Israel a little, and I hope Israelis will eventually win the fight against this tyrant wannabe.
So they will kill all people in Gaza?
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
āRoof knockingā: Hitting the buildingās roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, Iām shocked those protocols are still used after Hamasās attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel donāt care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isnāt good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
āTheyāre wrecking homes and destroying infrastructure, but at least theyāre nice about it!ā
Israel is in the wrong because theyāre settler colonialists who stole the land from Palestinians. There is no defensive acts, continued occupation and protection of their occupation is an offensive act.
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https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites?
Send in ground forces that can separate fighters from civilians in a way that leveling a building and killing everyone inside cannot.
Hitting the buildingās roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes
So saying āattention, we will destroy your home, all your possessions, and your livelihood in 15 minutesā, before doing exactly that to Innocent people makes them the good guys? I donāt think so.
So, itās an unattended concentration camp, and they hope everyone dies there.
Has been for decadesā¦
Itās over 2 million in like 140 sq milesā¦
They donāt have their own police, donāt get to vote (Israel wonāt let them have an election), arenāt in control of their own utilities, donāt have freedom of movement, and get treated as subhuman.
And Israel wants everyone to believe thereās no reason for Palestinians to hate Israelās government.
Put people in those conditions and refuse to treat them as humans, and some of them are going to stop acting like humans. Itās basically sociology and would happen to any population in those conditions
Hamas is who does not allow further elections in Gaza.
Following the FatahāHamas conflict that started in 2006, Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip without elections. Gazan Prime Minister Haniyye announced in September 2012 the formation of a second Hamas government, also without elections.
Well, killing some and hope the rest will try to flee to Egypt at which point Gaza is free for the taking.
Or well, maybe, they hope that in desperation people will try to rush the blockade, at which point they just kill them. Hamas awful actions have given Israel plenty of ammunition to keep everyone else on the world stage away for a while, no matter what they do now.
Hamas awful actions
Didnāt happen in a vacuumā¦
Thereās reasons people are willing to die in a war they have no chance of winning.
Itās stand up for your people or watch them essentially be tortured slowly to death.
I mean, at the same time I canāt support mass rape. Or rape in general.
Also not a fan of carrying around naked corpses of multilated people. Not a fan.
Itās stand up for your people or watch them essentially be tortured slowly to death.
There is another option. Negotiate a viable peace, which they have refused to do repeatedly. Palestine is essentially a defeated state that refuses to acknowledge its loss or make concessions. The only victory condition they are willing to entertain is not viable and their insistence on fighting an unwinnable war, often via guerilla attacks and terrorism, will not end well for them.
[Hamasās charter,] article 13, āThere is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.ā
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
Raping women is standing up for palestinians is it? How exactly have the actions of hamas helped the palestinian people?
No, and that was never the plan. Had it been Israel has far more efficient ways of doing it. The goal is to put the pressure on Hamas, two million people worth of pressure. You can claim you are fighting for freedom until stomachs start grumbling. Then Israel hopes Palestinians will turn on Hamas and the whole thing will be over or at least at a different stage where something can be done without wiping the whole place.
So if itās a total blockade now, what was it before? (hint: it was also a blockade then, has been since 2007)
Itās saddening to see Israelās military (which is not Israel) attack civilians and civilian infrastructure in retaliation for Hamas (which is not Palestine) having attacked civilians and civilian infrastructure- this is all a shit-show of punishing the innocent to get the other side to back down and it will never end.
Well itās one thing to blockade a region during a war/conflict (which even has a border with Egypt) and killing and raping hundreds of festival attendeesā¦
Eventually you have to stop letting your enemy make the rules, and defend yourself.
Well, it looks to me like both sides are convinced that unless they punish the other side, the other side will keep on doing what theyāve been doing. Acting on that belief only provides evidence for the other side for the case that the other will stop at nothing but the otherās extinction, that the only rational course of action is yet more offensive action until the other side finally capitulates- ā¦which seems unlikely to ever happen so long as Palestine remains the accepted battlefield for the proxy war that this conflict is.
Yes, Hamas commits war crimes by using civilian infra Yes, Israel commits war crimes by bombing it The context of this exchange of atrocities isā¦ the occupation of Gaza, which meets too many of the measures of a genocide. At this point, neither Israel nor Hamas are defending themselves, theyāre cooperating in the genocide of Palestinians The broader context of that is that Israel:Palestine is a proxy conflict between their respective allies, who are just fine watching Palestine burn
Fortunately the war criminals are now being blockaded and bombed to shit and are about to be invaded
Fortunatelythe largest prison in the world is now being blockaded and bombed to shit and is about to be invaded.
The only prison you can leave, work in other countries from, vote for terrorists in before those terrorists canceled voting, and have autonomy in your daily life.
Oh and also purchase arms, break into a neighboring country, and murder their civilians, including beheading babies.
What a weird prison!
Yeah, by the war criminals on the other side.
Also, if you think people murdering each other is āfortunateā youāre some low level scum in my eyes.
I think terrorists being killed is good for everyone on Earth.
I think the innocents who will suffer deserve every sympathy, and that all anger about innocent loss of life belongs squarely aimed at the terrorists who picked this fight
Hopefully the death of Hamas leads to radical shifts in Israeli policy toward Palestinians in general.
2.9k comments in 3 months.
and I thought I used this too much. Go touch some grass.
I travel a lot for work and get bored in airports.
Sorry your job is hard and mine isnāt.
