No one is free from criticism. Harmful ideas should be condemned, when they are demonstrably harmful. But theist beliefs are such a vast range and diversity of ideas, some harmful, some useful, some healing, some vivifying, and still others having served as potent drivers of movements for justice; that to lump all theist religious belief into one category and attack the whole of it, only demonstrates your ignorance of theology, and is in fact bigotry.
By saying that religious and superstitious beliefs should be disrespected, or otherwise belittling, or stigmatizing religion and supernatural beliefs as a whole, you have already established the first level on the “Pyramid of Hate”, as well as the first of the “10 Stages of Genocide.”
If your religion is atheism, that’s perfectly valid. If someone is doing something harmful with a religious belief as justification, that specific belief should be challenged. But if you’re crossing the line into bigotry, you’re as bad as the very people you’re condemning.
Antitheism is a form of supremacy in and of itself.
"In other words, it is quite clear from the writings of the “four horsemen” that “new atheism” has little to do with atheism or any serious intellectual examination of the belief in God and everything to do with hatred and power.
Indeed, “new atheism” is the ideological foregrounding of liberal imperialism whose fanatical secularism extends the racist logic of white supremacy. It purports to be areligious, but it is not. It is, in fact, the twin brother of the rabid Christian conservatism which currently feeds the Trump administration’s destructive policies at home and abroad – minus all the biblical references."
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/5/4/the-resurrection-of-new-atheism/
It seems like you’re saying no one is allowed to criticize religion as a whole, but only certain aspects of certain religions that you agree are “harmful”.
The problem is that there are a growing number of people who find ALL religions to be harmful, and those people have a right to make their feelings known.
You are gaslighting people into believing that they are bigots for speaking out against bigoted religious practices. That sounds like you are the one with a problem
My point was that many people feel that religion as a whole is harmful, and they should be free to criticize religion as a whole and not be restricted to only debating specific cherry picked aspects that OP here seems to think are not “off limits” to disagree with
Some people also feel certain races as a whole are harmful. There isn’t an obligation to tolerate that any more than tolerating antitheistic positions.
It’s just not convincing to claim people believing something religious is inherently harmful. It is possible to believe religious things without causing harm to others. So, why should people accept intolerance of religious views in general?
There is nothing inherently “good” about religion at all. Honestly, I believe it cheapens the human race. It says that humans aren’t strong enough on their own. They NEED the guidance and help of invisible beings to do the things they do.
I was a heroin addict for over a decade. I am now clean, and even off the methadone. I purposefully avoided things like NA because I got myself clean. God had no part in it. God doesn’t deserve the credit. I put in the work.
But the main problem with religion is that it is an override switch for critical thinking. Things that are obviously, and proven to be helpful and right. They can become muddy at best and downright wrong when viewed through the lens of religion. Think, abortion, and stem cell research. Good people get hurt when viewed through the lens of religion. Think LGBTQ, or people of a different religion.
In the end the small positives aren’t worth the negatives, and for those “good religious people” you still support machines that are into child marriage, child molestation, keeping women down, and hurting other humans just because your god said it’s cool.
I went to some AA meetings at one point in my life. It’s sickening to see people cheapen their success by thanking god, instead of their own willpower.
You made the decision, thank yourself, or the people around you.
So, i noticed that a lot of what you mentioned has been a European thing. I grew up in the US in a city that is majority black. Because I’m white I got int a lot of fights. So, my dad moved me to a southern baptist private school.
My new school the mascot was a confederate soldier. Our symbol was a confederate flag. Our basketball gym had confederate flags 2 stories tall painted on the walls. They used the Abeka book system, which teaches young earth creationism, and a generally more extreme version of American exceptionalism among other problematic views. I took bible for a school credit. I’m sure you won’t be surprised to learn that there were only 3 black people in the entire school k-12.
The Ku Klux Klan is also a christian organization. I had a relative that cheated on his wife. The KKK showed up and beat him so bad that he walked with a limp for the rest of his life. They fancied themselves a Christian morality police. Obviously that was a long time ago, but if conservatives in the US have their way anything is possible.
When I was homeless and drug addicted. I used to have to beg for money, and occasionally you’d get someone that would tell you to “go ask a church for help. They’ll help ya”. Well, I have asked churches for help. I asked a few mosques too. Hell, I actually had a mosque give me some food one time. But of all the churches I asked and admittedly it was over 10 which is a super small sample size. Not a single one ever helped and 1 was kind enough to offer to call the police on me if I didn’t leave immediately.
Down here if you go to church and you’re white it’s like a secret handshake that says “I at least hate gay people but probably black people too”. I’d also like to point out that I’m painting a pretty broad stroke with that statement. Obviously not ALL christians in the southern US are racist homophobic bigots, but I’d bet my life that over half are. I’d bet 2 toes and a finger it’s close to 75%.
Churches down here promote homophobia. That’s almost all churches down here. It’s so rare to find a church down here that’s ok with the LGBTQ community that when one pops up they advertise it. They’ll say something like “Everyone is welcome regardless of race or sexual orientation”. Kinda weird that even has to be said in 2023 but here we are.
Here is a local version of what I mean. https://pilgrimuccbham.org/about/
In the end I can’t speak to the history of the church. I mean I could, but is Saturday and I have kids to feed. I feel though that the recent past and present right around me is bad enough.
This is the take I cannot stand. I don’t care what anyone’s beliefs are, but to say that religion is inherently bad, or that it is incompatible with critical thinking is offensive, and quite frankly, extremely narrow minded and stupid.
Don’t most religions condemn atheism as inherently bad, stupid, dishonest, etc?
This is not inherent to all religions. Some particular religions are intolerant of other beliefs. Some aren’t. I’m not sure of “most”, you’d actually have to start listing out religions and gathering evidence for that claim.
From the Christians who have been proven to molest children, and set back rights of women and LGBTQ people. To the Muslims that also do horrible things to children, and women, and LGBTQ people. To Hindus that kill Sikhs and Muslims. To Sikhs that kill Hindus. I could keep going but I think I’ve got a large enough sample size already.
Even if you’re church or whatever doesn’t do these things directly. It still helps to breed the identity that is that religion. It still helps to spread the hate associated with that religion. In a lot of cases it sends money to fund the people that are fighting.
As far as religion messing with people’s ability to think critically. If you think religion doesn’t mess with that. I can’t help you. It’s literally in the news all day everyday. Pretty much everything that has to do with hate towards the LGBTQ people in the US was initiated by fear mongering politicians, and given legitimacy by religion.
There is nothing inherently “good” about religion at all. Honestly, I believe it cheapens the human race. It says that humans aren’t strong enough on their own. They NEED the guidance and help of invisible beings to do the things they do
It’s arguable whether anything is inherently good at all.
The idea that belief in a god cheapens the human race, or that belief in a god makes people weak isn’t any different from saying belief in natural forces that we analyze scientifically cheapens the human race or makes people weaker in some sense.
God had no part in it. God doesn’t deserve the credit. I put in the work.
Scientific arguments can be made for why your success isn’t truly your own either. I.e. socioeconomic class, geographical proximity to resources, nature vs nurture arguments etc.
On top of that, not all theists would say you don’t deserve credit for your hard work.
But the main problem with religion is that it is an override switch for critical thinking. Things that are obviously, and proven to be helpful and right. They can become muddy at best and downright wrong when viewed through the lens of religion.
Failing to think critically is not an issue solely held by theists. Atheists can and regularly do fail at this. Normal people of all types fail at this often. The assumption that theism implies a failure to think critically is just wrong. Most theistic beliefs can easily be made consistent with scientific thinking for what it’s worth.
In the end the small positives aren’t worth the negatives, and for those “good religious people” you still support machines that are into child marriage, child molestation, keeping women down, and hurting other humans just because your god said it’s cool.
I don’t think religious institutions are the only institutions that do these things. Perhaps I am wrong? But to claim these crimes are solely a theistic thing seems incorrect to me.
But even if they are, the institutions themselves and the religious beliefs are distinct. All religions really try to do is to explain things we don’t really have answers for. This is not inherently bad, atheists do this about as much as theists as far as I can tell.
Nothing is inherently good. Life is a crapshoot. But religion likes to say that it is good.
Your second point. I’m guessing you’re equating science and religion? Which is a terrible argument. We can see and do science using our own brains and so, I’m just going to leave this one alone.
This one is true. I was homeless and ran into a girl that had a crush on me. She said that she would pay for my treatment if I was serious about getting clean. Another opportunity wasn’t going to come like that, and everyone I grew up with was already dead from overdoses. So, she paid for it and I did the suffering. After all no man is an island.
The theists that would say I don’t deserve credit for my accomplishments are the self hating humans I was referring to. They think we are too weak to do anything for ourselves. It also gives them plausible deniability when they do something fucked up. The good and the bad. It was all me baby.
Failing to think critically is something that happens to all of us from time to time. The difference is that religion is used to cause a mass directed lapse in critical thinking. As an example “god doesn’t like gay people because it says so in the bible. so all gay people bad”. When someone thinking critically would just judge individuals based on their own merit. Regardless of who they decide makes them happy.
Last point. Whew. Man. Just to be clear. I enjoyed reading your counter points. I thought all of them but one were pretty good, and that one may just be me misreading it.
So, you aren’t wrong. Boy Scouts comes to mind. But I feel like there is something especially egregious about someone telling you they’re going to save your soul, but the whole time they’re fucking your kid. Ya know what I mean? Not very holy of them.
Your second point. I’m guessing you’re equating science and religion? Which is a terrible argument. We can see and do science using our own brains and so, I’m just going to leave this one alone.
I’m not so much trying to equate science and religion but to argue against the claim that religion specifically is the issue, as far as your comment about certain religions taking credit for your own work. All sorts of institutions besides religion and science can and will attempt to do this.
The theists that would say I don’t deserve credit for my accomplishments are the self hating humans I was referring to. They think we are too weak to do anything for ourselves. It also gives them plausible deniability when they do something fucked up. The good and the bad. It was all me baby.
I still think this is an overgeneralization of theistic positions. I get that some theists would do this. They are shitty for that. But plenty of non-theists would do the same. There have been millions of theists throughout all of human history. It just doesn’t make sense to me to chalk this kind of thing up to being uniquely a theist thing.
Failing to think critically is something that happens to all of us from time to time. The difference is that religion is used to cause a mass directed lapse in critical thinking. As an example “god doesn’t like gay people because it says so in the bible. so all gay people bad”. When someone thinking critically would just judge individuals based on their own merit. Regardless of who they decide makes them happy.
I understand your point here, but this seems more like a point against abuses by religious institutions specifically. There’s a difference between some extremist christian cult telling people they ought to murder gay people and some random innocent person believing the earth was created by a small women on mars who dispenses cotton candy from her hair. Condemnation of religion by many people often includes the latter case I mentioned despite it being pretty harmless.
So, you aren’t wrong. Boy Scouts comes to mind. But I feel like there is something especially egregious about someone telling you they’re going to save your soul, but the whole time they’re fucking your kid. Ya know what I mean? Not very holy of them.
I totally agree with you on this.
Most theistic beliefs can easily be made consistent with scientific thinking for what it’s worth.
Literally all theism starts with a claim that has no proof “there is a god”.
As these claims have no proof they can immediately be dismissed.
As these claims have no proof they can immediately be dismissed.
There are plenty of claims without proof that shouldn’t be dismissed. The majority of scientific inquiry investigates claims we can’t currently prove or disprove.
There really isn’t any objective proof there isn’t a god either. If we can dismiss claims that a god exists based on lack of proof, then it seems like logically we also can dismiss claims that no god exists based on lack of proof too?
There are already some good rebuttals to your comment here, but I’m going to add another. The entire language of your argument is geared toward the theistic religions. You claim God did nothing to help you overcome your addiction. As an aside I could argue, from the theistic perspective that God did help you overcome your addiction, and you’re just not aware of it. But more to the point I can point out how, in the pantheistic model of theology the universe and everything in it is God, and therefore you are God who got a part of themself clean without the help of a concept of God, in order to claim that God doesn’t deserve to claim credit for getting them self clean.
Please ignore those arguments in themselves, I’m not trying to debate religion. I pointed that out to highlight that what you positioned as an argument against religion as a whole doesn’t even make sense, and is completely irrelevant, to one subset of religions. If you have grievances with the theistic, maybe even more specifically the monotheistic religions, then why not take those grievances up with who they belong?
And also ignoring that atheism is a religion.
And speaking of LGBTQ, I once worked at a summer camp that was run by a Christian church. The pastor and her wife had programs in place for the purpose of protecting and helping LGBTQ youth. Justice and injustice can come from theists and atheists alike.
So, I have been typing out responses to each person. You are the last one, and kind of like you said. I have covered pretty much everything, but I want to leave you with one final thought.
Let’s pretend that I start a business. Let’s say that I call this business “Save The Whales”. Now I start running advertisements and I say that for a small donation every Sunday I will feed the whales. So, people start donating and things are going well. Until, you find out that only 10% of the money you donate actually feeds the whales. The other 90% goes to killing whales.
The point to this is that regardless of what you claim to be. You are what you do. Religion often talks a big game about love, and tolerance, and forgiveness. But then says unless your gay, or black, or whatever. Where as it may not say it in the book. Religion is what its followers do.
When I was 5 my mother kidnapped me and ran to Florida. We were in church every time the doors opened. When I was six she got sick. I had to learn to cook, but we were still going to church. When I was seven she died. I didn’t know this then, but she couldn’t afford her insulin. I watched her die slowly just she and I. Where was god?
When I moved in with my dad. We kept going to church. I started being sexually abused by a neighbor when I was 9. Where was god?
I mean if god deserves credit for my sobriety. When I was old enough to make my own decisions. Then certainly god deserves credit for the things that happened to me as a child when I had no clue right?
As I said previously I’m not interested in debating religion in itself, but I guess I could give my two cents anyway. If you don’t believe in any deitys, that’s totally fine. It’s completely valid to have those beliefs.
Or on the other hand if you do believe in a higher power, or powers, then it becomes a question of what ontology you believe in. Somewhat similar to what I mentioned previously, I lean more toward a panentheistic framework, with somewhat of a gnostic leaning. By gnostic I mean to say that I do not accept the idea of omnipotence, omniscience, or omnibenevolence. In that model, “God” is everything, though I believe there’s room for polytheism within that framework - that there are potentially countless beings, corporeal and incorporeal.
In my view there’s no disparity to reconcile, because everything in life works the way it works and we have no way to know if it could be otherwise. Maybe there are just fundamental constraints on what a physical reality can be? Maybe some beings are malevolent to humans, others benevolence, and sometimes one group has more success than the other?
So I would agree that the deity of the Abrahamic religions is a cruel one. I have my criticisms of their ways, many criticisms. But I don’t use those criticisms to attack theistic belief as a whole, because I know there are a wide diversity of beliefs out there with fundamentally different ways of viewing and relating with life.
Atheism is not a religion. It’s the idea that there are no gods, and in most cases no religion follows.
Atheism is not getting involved. Your whole thing then is really just pro-theist vs. Antitheist. I would say that even the most diehard anti-theists aren’t invading other countries, jailing people, or beheading them for their beliefs.
Teasing religious people for their dick head beliefs, is a response to all the shitty things that have been done and are currently being done in the name of religion.
If you NEED religion to be a good person then you’re not a good person. Every single shitty thing happening on the planet right now is directly related to greed, or religion. Yet you still think it’s “bigotry” to call that out.
Fuck religion, and fuck a god that would sit and watch all this happen and do nothing. If god is real he’s a real piece of shit.
Atheism is not a religion. It’s the idea that there are no gods, and in most cases no religion follows.
The notion that “atheism is a religion” is so comical that I’d love to watch the brain sprain when people who spout that nonsense come across a legit, non-parody, atheistic religion.
So I’m not talking about the Temple of Satan types. Nor the Flying Spaghetti Monster types. Nor the myriad of other spoof religions. I’m talking a serious religion with a long history (it’s older than Christianity) that is at the very least agnostic if not flat-out atheistic¹: 儒教 (which you’d know as Confucianism).
So here we have a religion that is either agnostic or atheistic. Kind of hinting that atheism and religion are separate axes.
¹ “You are not yet able to serve men, how can you serve spirits?” was 孔夫子’s (Confucius’) stance on paying homage to gods.
Atheism is a religion. To argue that it isn’t is an attempt to use language to set it apart from other religions, as if it’s something special or superior. It’s a part of that same kind of supremacy talked about in the first article I posted.
If you are a theist, that implies specific beliefs following specific patterns. If you are not, you are an atheist. That is the specific, universally accepted definition of that word. Whatever you want it to mean instead, for the purposes of making your point less bad, is not all that interesting to most people.
If you distinguish between agnosticism and atheism then this is false. If you’re an atheist in the sense of effectively replacing religious ideology/beliefs with scientific ones, then this is also more or less false.
I’ve always found the idea that you are replacing religious faith with science to be ridiculous, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. Science does not ask for faith, it plainly lays out the facts and frameworks to be scrutinized. The scrutiny is the point.
If you distinguish between agnosticism and atheism then this is false.
… no.
If you’re an atheist in the sense of effectively replacing religious ideology/beliefs with scientific ones […]
That is a straw man made up by religious people - thus, pretty irrelevant.
Nope, this is wrong, because science doesn’t have “beliefs” it has theories, which change based on evidence, peer review, and experiments. How often do you see atheists congregate in a laboratory, with a scientist leading a sermon from “On the Origin of Species”? Darwin got things wrong too, but you don’t see different sects of atheism who argue over whether individual traits are passed down to Offspring via genes or gemmules. Because one has evidence and peer review to back it up, and one lacks evidence because it was peer reviewed.
Nope, this is wrong, because science doesn’t have “beliefs” it has theories…
My point is not about science. Science is great. My point is about the people and their beliefs.
How often do you see atheists congregate in a laboratory, with a scientist leading a sermon from “On the Origin of Species”?
You absolutely see atheists circlejerk online propagating the same stupid antitheistic arguments repeatedly online.
Darwin got things wrong too, but you don’t see different sects of atheism who argue over whether individual traits are passed down to Offspring via genes or gemmules.
Argument, interpretation, disagreement and so on are all essential parts of doing science. People across all sciences argue about all sorts of different topics within their respective fields. There’s plenty of topics where scientific thought hasn’t actually reached a consensus. The scientific method itself isn’t really intended to confirm beliefs but to falsify.
My actual issue here isn’t with the scientific method or doing science. My issue here is replacing blind faith in one dogma for another and pretending like that is preferable when it really isn’t.
Because one has evidence and peer review to back it up, and one lacks evidence because it was peer reviewed.
Is this a typo? Peer review does not make a thing lack evidence?
If you distinguish between agnosticism and atheism then this is false. If you’re an atheist in the sense of effectively replacing religious ideology/beliefs with scientific ones, then this is also more or less false.
Religion is when people believe things? Reductio ad absurdum.
Beliefs that are founded in non-falsifiable reproducible objective evidence are not generally religious beliefs, they are scientific ones. Science seeks to accurately describe our world and beliefs that don’t are discarded. Religion seeks to make people believe absurdities and people who don’t are discarded.
Religion is when people believe things?
Are you claiming that this is what I’m saying? It’s definitely not what I’m saying.
Beliefs that are founded in non-falsifiable reproducible objective evidence are not generally religious beliefs, they are scientific ones.
I don’t think there’s any necessity to distinguish between religious and scientific beliefs in this specific way. To me this comes across as you choosing to define scientific beliefs in the usual way, and then to explicitly exclude scientific beliefs from your definition to further your own point. Do you think religions can’t be willing to accept evidence about certain facts or to consider the possible falsifiability of certain propositions? If so then you are wrong. There’s no shortage of backpedaling, twisting and turning in the history of apologetics.
Science seeks to accurately describe our world and beliefs that don’t are discarded. Religion seeks to make people believe absurdities and people who don’t are discarded.
This is absolutely a mischaracterization of the position/intent of religious people/religions. If you want to have good arguments against them you should argue against what they actually say and not things you make up in your head.
No, that’s not what I said, nor is it really implied by anything I said.
The original comment said: “Atheism isn’t a religion. It’s the lack of a religion.”
My reply was: “If you distinguish between agnosticism and atheism then this is false. If you’re an atheist in the sense of effectively replacing religious ideology/beliefs with scientific ones, then this is also more or less false.”
For the second point: This has nothing to do with worship. This is about religious beliefs. For example, believing that the universe came into being by some mysterious god in the sky is a religious belief. Believing there is a man in Montana who willed all of us into existence is a religious belief. Believing some force of nature that we can analyze scientifically is also a religious belief. There’s no worship required for this and I am not claiming atheists worship science or scientific beliefs. My actual point here is that atheists can and do often have religious beliefs, whether they actually realize it and are willing to admit it or not.
For my first point: There’s no implication of worshiping scientific beliefs here either. My point is that agnosticism and atheism are two different things. One explicitly does not commit to a set of religious beliefs, one explicitly denies the existence of deities. These are not the same thing and claiming atheism is simply the lack of religion is at best an oversimplification and at worst stupidly wrong.
Atheism is a religion. To argue that it isn’t is an attempt to use language to set it apart from other religions, as if it’s something special or superior. It’s a part of that same kind of supremacy talked about in the first article I posted.
Couple of thoughts:
-
Atheism is not a religion. Religion is defined by doctrine and rituals, atheism has neither. It is the absence of religion. Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.
-
Antitheism typically stands on the ground that religion has been used to justify atrocities. It posits that religion is poisonous due to its effect on people and its ability to control their behavior to do irrational or evil things. Antitheism is not misanthropic in nature, nor is it trying to persecute people for their religion (at least not inherently), it is just the belief that a purely secular would would be more harmonious.
-
The idea that a minority group like antitheists have started the beginning stages of a “genocide” against religious people just because they find their beliefs to be harmful is absurd, even at face value. Even atheists hold no institutional power anywhere in the world and antitheistic, hardline anti-religion beliefs tend to be fringe, even among atheists.
tl;dr - Generally disagree about everything
Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.
I agree with most of your points, but I’m not sure I think it’s fair.
While atheism/antitheism is obviously a belief, it is not “capital F Faith” in the usual religious sense. You have a “faith” in gravity and that it’ll keep doing gravity things, which is based on measurable phenomena. The other kind, “just-have-faith/God works in mysterious ways” faith, is specifically based on the opposite, and is more akin to trust and hope. Trust and hope are great, but it does make the concepts fundamentally different. Equating the two is a very common occurrence that just so happens to either paint atheism/antitheism as a much more “random” belief, or paint theism as much more substantiated than it is, depending on perspective.
I agree that it’s more of a semantics game. Religious faith is different from a faith in secular theories and hypotheses. One is based on superstition, while the other on reasonable probability. That said, the answer to the question “why do you believe in anything if knowledge can never be guaranteed” always ends up being some variation of “faith” in my experience, whether the beliefs are secular or religious, but I know there are those who disagree and/or will categorize these things differently based on their choice of language.
Antitheism has plenty of blood on its hands, just like every other religion. Counting human lives only:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligion
And going beyond human lives, only something like 1-3% of the human population is vegan. That means 97% of people are actively complicit in an egregious atrocity every day, and that is blood on the hands of people of all religions.
Again, antitheism does not have the defining characteristics of religion. And what you’re pointing to is state violence, which again, is not an issue today since antitheists do not hold institutional power, are considered a fringe group, and would generally not accept a state-sponsored genocide of religious people. I feel like you are arguing against the ghost of Stalinism.
