This is a serious question, I want to understand your views. I know very little about the Chinese system, but from what I know it doesn’t seem to be very communist at all, but rather a capitalist state to rival the US. Why do you all defend it so viciously?
Ignore socialism for one moment
China developed from sub saharan African conditions only 40 years ago
They went from feudalism and a century of humiliation before the Chinese Communists came to power in 1949
Prior to 1949 the life expectancy was 35
20 years under Mao this had doubled to 70 years old
Since 1979 China has not been in a war and has gone from said sub saharan African conditions to a space faring civilisation landing on the far side of the moon and putting rovers on Mars
They did this without the hyper exploitation of colonies and wars of imperialism for conquests of booty
The Chinese people know what life was like a generation ago - their parenta tell them. The Communist Party of China enjoys a 89% approval rating of Chinese people precisely because they’ve lifted up the greatest number of humans out of poverty in such a short period of time
For that alone China should be praised daily by the world proletariat and the world socialist movement in the face of the most reactionary and murderous regime the world has ever seen (US and its puppets in Nato)
We can, of course, get onto comradely critiques of whether China is in socialism, whether they have succumbed to revisionism etc.
But we can only do that, as far as im concerned, when youve said your ten hail marys to China and thanked the CCP for it’s unbelievable sprint of humanity it has done for the human race since 1949
If you don’t think China is a socialist state, then before you critique it, you need to spend time studying it from the perspective of communists. This is something Anarchists and the western left refuse to do, which is why there’s a trend within the popular left to see China as a failed state that fell to capitalism and despotism. In reality, though China has many flaws, it does many things right and proves that a socialist planned economy and Marxism-Leninism can beat capitalism at its own game, while uplifting millions and crushing imperialism.
We’re not just upholding the enemy of the United States, we’re also defending a genuinely socialist state that genuinely attempts to dislodge capitalism’s monopoly on global politics. Even if you don’t agree with China’s domestic policies - to which there are a few questionable ones - you would be a fool to be opposed to their foreign policies. You would also be a fool to oppose the only state strong enough to challenge American hegemony during a time when American hegemony is on the way out, and the Americans are trying anything keep their diseased fingers in other nation’s business.
It’s AES (Actually Existing Socialism) like Vietnam and Laos. Therefore, I defend it.
Are you a communist?
Yes. I’ve been more interested in Russia and Cuba though, so I don’t know much in terms of Chinese communism, but I’m interested in the conflict between leftists who either hate or love China.
So far, I’ve been exposed more to the former than the latter, so I’ve been leaning more that way, but I obviously don’t want to commit to either view without seeing both sides’ arguments.
The whole problem arises from the misconception that “markets” or “market mechanisms” are anti-socialist or non-socialist or that they are intrinsically capitalist. Yet the replication of a market for socialism is just that: using the same mechanics to boost productivity. In addition: Vietnam and Laos have done the same thing. And China has neighborhood committees, unions, and cooperatives that work with the government. I would suggest watching Bay Area415’s video on the subject.
Was just gonna link this as a good introductory vid.
@QCry@lemmygrad.ml Socialism with Chinese Characteristics (SWCC), is quite a rabbit hole, and there’s a LOT of misconceptions and falsehoods about it, esp since China is the target of this new cold war.
Once you get some time, here’s a lot of readings / articles I’ve compiled.
I’m gonna be honest, some people in these circles have a way too delusional view of China for my liking, and will defend basically every part of it.
I personally think you don’t have to do that. There’s a lot of problems in China, and it doesn’t make you a “bad Marxist” to admit that. I still support it however, while it’s not perfect I wouldn’t say it’s a capitalist country like the U.S. and I think the world is a better place with China in it than if the U.S. had zero competition in the world stage.
The U.S., Brazil, and India all have far-right crazies in charge. Can you imagine the world if China wasn’t what it is? The world would literally be dominated by fascists. I’ll always prefer a “not so perfect” communism to fascism and shit like that. God knows what kinda leadership China would have right now if it wasn’t for the communist party.
Yeah, I wish it was better and I do think there are serious issues. But compared to the alternatives, I’m glad China exists and I support them.
China isn’t facist? How so? So they don’t suppress other opinions and cultures? They don’t lock up and kill people they don’t like? They are not imperialistic? They’re not almost an autocracy?
You are a bad Marxist because you didn’t understand or read his works carefully. For Marx, Capitalism was a necessary evil to reach true communism. A vehicle. He predicted technological and social advances, step-by-step, until we reach communism. So to debate which country is a „good communist country“ is moot as there can’t be real communism yet.
Whether it is China or the western world who’ll reach true communism first will have to be seen. I for one see Europe ahead of China and especially the US, as Europe - at least ideologically - strives to make everyone equal under the law / give everyone the same opportunities. It has homework to do on tue technological front, but that’s nothing unachievable. Whereas culturally, China and the US are better technology wise but far away socially and culturally.
some people in these circles have a way too delusional view of China for my liking, and will defend basically every part of it.
Which defenses have you found to be problematic in these supposed circles, enough to warrant the title of ‘delusional’? Have you realized we’re in a new cold war, with an increasing possibility of a hot war by the day? What need is there for any western leftist’s unheard “nuance” in the current moment? You see people defending the PRC fiercely because they understand the stakes and rightly treat a dangerous moment with utmost seriousness.
Yeah, I wish it was better and I do think there are serious issues.
Why are you telling us this and not bringing your vague concerns to the CPC itself? What is the reason any western leftist even brings this up in the first place anyway?
OK, and so that means you can’t say 1 bad thing about China? That makes no sense, especially in our circles. I understand defending China when talking with liberals or conservatives, cause they have no right criticizing China when they support systems that are 20x times worse and more cruel.
But I don’t understand why a leftist shouldn’t be able to bring up the number of billionaires in China, for example, when talking to other leftists without being labeled as some sort of traitor or propagandist or some other dumb bullshit. “They have less and more regulated billionaires than the U.S.” – yeah, I think that’s awesome, I would still prefer if billionaires didn’t exist though. And me saying that doesn’t mean I’m equating China to the U.S.
Or human rights – yeah, I know and constantly criticize the U.S. on their human rights violations – what kind of hypocrite would I be if then I stay silent or just says “well, the U.S. is worse” when China is brought up. Fuck that.
Leftists that don’t support American/western bullshit should absolutely have a right to level reasonable criticism towards China or any Marxist country.
You’re acting like I’m putting my criticism of China above criticism of the U.S. and other countries when that is clearly not what I said. I said I support China, but that shouldn’t mean complete blindness and absolute support in absolutely every fragment of their rule.
I should be allowed to think their economic system isn’t perfect without getting berated that “you just don’t get it, it’s all part of the plan man, just wait a few more years, you’ll see.” I’m not calling for the destruction of Chinese communism or saying the U.S.'s system is better for fucks sake.
Why are you telling us this and not bringing your vague concerns to the CPC itself?
What is this even supposed to mean???
What is the reason any western leftist even brings this up in the first place anyway?
Because you’re allowed to criticize stuff you support dude. What, if China tomorrow started, I don’t know, killing gay people for example, should I just not talk about it ever?? Come on, don’t be such babies. Or if you have a friend that you love and support, is it a sin to criticize them or call them out when they’re doing something bad?
OK, and so that means you can’t say 1 bad thing about China?
You can. You’ve already done it, several times in fact. Don’t focus on can, focus on should. Where does this urgent desire to say bad things about the PRC come from anyway? What I’m really asking you is: When you exercise your speech, what do you hope to accomplish by saying PRC is bad sometimes? Who are the people you hope understands and agrees with you that the PRC is bad sometimes? What do you think is most likely to result from you saying that the PRC is bad sometimes?
But I don’t understand why a leftist shouldn’t be able to bring up the number of billionaires in China, for example, when talking to other leftists without being labeled as some sort of traitor or propagandist or some other dumb bullshit. “They have less and more regulated billionaires than the U.S.” – yeah, I think that’s awesome, I would still prefer if billionaires didn’t exist though. And me saying that doesn’t mean I’m equating China to the U.S.
Why should you bring it up in the first place?
Or human rights – yeah, I know and constantly criticize the U.S. on their human rights violations – what kind of hypocrite would I be if then I stay silent or just says “well, the U.S. is worse” when China is brought up. Fuck that.
You would indeed be a hypocrite if you believed that the PRC was a particularly egregious offender of human rights or are anywhere near the level of the US. Do you?
Leftists that don’t support American/western bullshit should absolutely have a right to level reasonable criticism towards China or any Marxist country.
Sure. Make sure it is constructive though. To make a constructive effort in criticizing, you should be taking your concerns to the CPC itself, built on an educated foundation and with viable solutions taking into account the material conditions. What you’ve been doing so far has been complaining to us. Congratulations, you’ve felled a tree in the forest while the CPC was away in the city. There are 2 ways this criticism can go. You can go tell the CPC that you’ve felled the tree, or you can fashion a spear from the bark of the tree with which to stab the CPC with (destructive criticism). This latter thing is what the libs/China watchers do btw, which is complain to Big Brother (US gov) so that he hurts (regime change) that meanie (PRC) over there. We socialists actually do the same thing but with regards to the US instead: complain to Big Brother (US masses) so that he hurts (revolution) that meanie (US gov) over there. Why? Because we seek its destruction, hence destructive criticism, just as the libs seek the destruction of the PRC. Now apply this logic to when the left sets its sight on the PRC and does what you’re doing. Can you see why I’m your questioning your intentions?
Because you’re allowed to criticize stuff you support dude. What, if China tomorrow started, I don’t know, killing gay people for example, should I just not talk about it ever?? Come on, don’t be such babies.
This is not a reason and you probably know it already. This is just doing it for the sake of doing it. I didn’t ask whether or not you were allowed to do whatever. You spent so much time wondering if you could, you never stopped to think if you should. Again, when you exercise your speech, what do you hope to accomplish by saying PRC is bad sometimes? I want to know why you just HAD to let us know that the PRC is bad sometimes, when “PRC isn’t perfect” has probably been repeated a million times in every defense ever made at this point.
Or if you have a friend that you love and support, is it a sin to criticize them or call them out when they’re doing something bad?
No, but in this scenario, you actually have the power to do a constructive critique. Because here you have a better understanding (educated foundation) of your friend and you’re more aware of their material conditions and can hence come up with proper solutions. Most importantly, you are talking to them directly and not rallying a group of bullies to denounce your friend. The citizens of the PRC are in this position whilst you on an online forum in the heart of Empire are not.
I think sometimes people (myself included) will joke that “China does nothing wrong” mainly because it is the opposite of the liberal mentality of “everything that happens in China is bad, even the objectively good stuff, like curing cancer (but at what cost?!)”
Some people might take the joke a bit too far sometimes, or someone who is fairly new to socialism might go a bit too far, but most tend to calm down after a while.
Honestly, because I think it’s fun. There is a lot of popular hate for China/communism and I enjoy putting together sound lines of reasoning which contradict these popular views.
My mom said I should have been a lawyer.
I mean, I’ve never been there so I don’t know anything about it and I don’t make enough money to “support” a country. So I don’t really know what OP means by that.
My response was more in line with OPs closing question on why people defend the actions of a country like China. It’s fun for me to take the unpopular position. It’s kind of like a devil’s advocate role
