The White House has confirmed that Ukraine is using US cluster bombs against Russian forces in the country.
National Security Spokesman John Kirby said initial feedback suggested they were being used âeffectivelyâ on Russian defensive positions and operations.
Cluster bombs scatter multiple bomblets and are banned by more than 100 states due to their threat to civilians.
The US agreed to supply them to boost Ukrainian ammunition supplies.
Ukraine has promised the bombs will only be used to dislodge concentrations of Russian enemy soldiers.
âThey are using them appropriately,â Mr Kirby said. âTheyâre using them effectively and they are actually having an impact on Russiaâs defensive formations and Russiaâs defensive manoeuvring. I think I can leave it at that.â
The US decided to send cluster bombs after Ukraine warned that it was running out of ammunition during its summer counter-offensive, which has been slower and more costly than many had hoped.
President Joe Biden called the decision âvery difficultâ, while its allies the UK, Canada, New Zealand and Spain opposed their use.
The vast majority sent are artillery shells with a lower than 2.35% âdud rateâ, a reference to the percentage of bomblets which do not explode immediately and can remain a threat for years.
The weapons are effective when used against troops in trenches and fortified positions, as they render large areas too dangerous to move around in until cleared.
Russia has used similar cluster bombs in Ukraine since it launched its full-scale invasion last year, including in civilian areas.
Reacting to the US decision to send the bombs, Russian President Vladimir Putin said his country had similar weapons and they would be used âif they are used against usâ.
Oleksandr Syrskyi, the Ukrainian general in charge of operations in the countryâs east, told the BBC last week that his forces needed the weapons to âinflict maximum damage on enemy infantryâ.
âWeâd like to get very fast results, but in reality itâs practically impossible. The more infantry who die here, the more their relatives back in Russia will ask their government âwhy?ââ
He added however that cluster bombs would not âsolve all our problemsâ.
He also acknowledged that their use was controversial, but added: âIf the Russians didnât use them, perhaps conscience would not allow us to do it too.â
Ukraine MOD has a program in place that databases every cluster munition fire mission. Demining eastern Ukraine is going to be a years long effort. Any unexpended ordinance will go into that effort. Countries that gave up cluster munitions have had their rose tinted glasses on too long and assumed war would be limited to foreign battlefields and not their back yards.
Ukraine is the country that is using them and they are the country that will have to clean them up. Seems pretty consensual.
âConsensualâ or not these (I doubt anyone asked the people of Ukraine but I digress.) weapons are terrible.
Many countries (not the US, Russia, or Ukraine) consider cluster bombs illegal. I worry seeing people applauding the use of such weaponsâŠ
Iâd prefer they donât get used, but my preference for Russia to get the fuck out of Ukraine is much greater. Theyâre mapping their usage and south and eastern Ukraine will need extensive UXO clearing with or without the use of cluster munitions.
American here. Cluster bombs, like any munition are weapon of war and are designed to kill. In a war, the goal is to end it as quickly as possible and if a cluster bomb can accomplish that goal faster more efficiently then I say use them.
Should you be dropping cluster bombs on cities full of civilians? Obviously not. But an open battlefield situation filled with trenches and tanks, they are effective tool.
In any case, itâs not like Ukraine and Russia are not firing other high explosive weaponry, bombs and mines are littering the landscape and will for hundreds of years to come. The only difference at this point is the delivery method of these weapons. There will be no shortage of unexploded ordinance left on the landscape after the war is over.
Yeah, but the big difference is these are small bombs, and a ton of them, that are really difficult to detect and clear. These things can be a buried for decades, and unlike a mine field someone could have walked or driven over it a thousand times before the one time it finally goes off or gets unearthed and someone picks it up not knowing itâs about to kill or maim them. And the place theyâre dropping them might not be an urban area now, but what about in 40 years? The ones the US dropped on Laos, for example, are still killing people. There are millions and millions of them still to this day.
I disagree. Russia has already deployed millions of minds inside of Ukraine, which is a foreign country. Those mines will stay active and deployed for decades, if not hundreds of years just waiting for something to drive or step on them before they explode.
Donât forget the so-called butterfly cluster bombs which have been used by Russia which changes color to a bright orange that makes it look like a toy to kids.
UXOs are in a state because the fusing failed. However, many of the clustered munitions that the United States still has in its inventory have a dual fuse to mitigate and reduce the number of UXOs to a very small percentage of the submunitions.
Germany years ago even developed cluster munitions with an electronic fuse that would completely fail within 24 hours of being deployed. Those had a 0% UXO rate. Itâs too bad that the United States military hadnât adopted that fusing system instead but it probably had other drawbacks.
In addition to the mines so, there are thousands of unexploded artillery shells that have been fired from both sides that are also a hazard.
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My point is that it is way too late in the game to be complaining about certain types of munitions being used when any sane line in the sand has long been crossed by the egregious war crimes being committed on a daily basis by Russia. Well the human rights watch can complain about Ukrainian war crimes, this whole shit storm was kicked off by Russia and they still defend their genocidal campaign against Ukrainians.
Many of countries that have banned the use of their military forces using cluster munitions have their arsenals stocked with similar technology to deploy a large quantity of landmines over a large area via mortars or artillery. I find it extremely hypocritical. Eastern Ukraine is already now one of the most heavily mined areas of the world and will already take decades to demine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT2_mine As an example
Another: https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/arms/cluster0405/3.htm
Sadly, the humanitarian concern of Ukraineâs use of cluster bombs is not the most important.
The real issue is why weâre sending Ukraine cluster bombs in the first place.
Weâre not doing it as part of some strategy or for some kind of tactical advantage. Weâre doing it because we donât have anything else left to send them. Weâve run out of modern munitions and wonât be getting much more anytime soon. Thatâs why weâre sending Ukraine cluster bombs.
And the reason this article exists is because Ukraine is almost certainly not using them effectively, but they want to convince us otherwise. Cluster bombs donât do shit to tanks or buildings. They were designed for targeting people hiding in the jungle. Why would anyone feel the need to write an article saying, âHey, btw, these weapons you paid for are definitely working out really well. Theyâre super good at destroying Russians, for sure!â? I suspect itâs because theyâre doing jack shit.
Cluster munitions certainly can take out tanks, but not all cluster munitions are made equally. There are several types. Just a quick Google search brings up the CBU-100 Rockeye II which is an anti-tank cluster munition.
Weâre also sending them these because cluster munitions are no longer used by the US military. So itâs decomission or send them to be used. Itâs cheaper to ship them then dispose of them.
And we havenât ran out of modern munitions. Weâre running low on AVAILABLE SURPLUS munitions to send them. But we are ramping up production to replace current stocks.
The tankies really came out for this one huh
Regarding peace talks people here seems to want In February 2022 peace could have been made but NATO /US called up Boris Johnson who went to Ukraine the stop it and successfully did so. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
Whatâs happens in Ukraine have been a topic for papers since the 1990s . Itâs a proxy war where two competing oligarch fractions are fighting for dominance.
As Afghanistans president said Ukraine should have learned from them. When elephants danceâŠ
The propaganda is so total that people rather see cluster bombs than peace. Fuck that.
Russia has repeatedly broken peace treaties and ceasefires with Ukraine. Their word means jack shit.
Next youâre going to suggest we just need to sit down for a reasonable conversation with Kim Jong UnâŠ
And speaking of misinformation/propoganda, nice job trying obfuscate from the fact that Ukraine is fighting for their own sovereignty against an aggressor whoâs committed genocide against their citizens, (with a recent history doing so in Syria as well).
Youâre either purposefully peddling propoganda under the guise of a warning, or youâve hypocritically fallen victim to it while warning against it. Either way, your statement is devoid of reality.
I already responded to this elsewhere. Stop spamming shit.
Whoâs got a rampant history of war crimes and genocide again?..
. . . .
Oh yeah, fucking russia!
Both sides are not the same and russia is the aggressor.
What peace negotiations with Russia would result in Ukraine keeping its sovereign territory?
Fair is fair in love and war
