I was just reading about how a current Israeli war minister’s son died in combat and it made me wonder that if Israeli’s politicians who make these decisions know their family will be affected by it personally and directly, does that lend towards the suggestion that it is more likely they are making genuinely ethically and morally correct decisions to engage in war stuff given their personal skin i the game?
It would seem totally different from American politicians like Cheney who create bullshit geopolitical conflicts knowing full well their progeny will never be touched by it…
Edit: I’m assuming they actually care/give a shit about their offspring and family, even if only just for appearences
I’m not an expert, but my understanding is that military service is mandatory for all, with a few exceptions.
The ultra religious communities are exempt, which has become increasingly unpopular over time.
Also, the head of Israel’s domestic police force, Itmar Ben Givir was rejected for mandatory service in his teens because of his extremism.
Generally, though, leaders children serve.
That’s a great insight into Israeli society.
The answer to your question is a resounding “yes”.
In fact, among the 4 members of war cabinet, at least one other has children in active combat units, and ALL cabinet members served in a combat unit as well as had at least one child in active combat duty.
Most children of Israeli politicians are absolutely conscripted to the army, and the public would look very badly on a “fortunate son” type situation.
Furthermore, there’s an unwritten rule the ultra-orthodox parties do not involve themselves or even voice an opinion on military matters because, and this something often said in Israel, “they don’t risk their children’s life in the army” (the ultra-orthodox are essentially exempt from conscription).
The Israeli Jewish public doesn’t see the Israeli combatants as poor or uneducated “others”, but as their children, brothers and fathers.
I think that’s a more ethical way of looking at it. However, this also helps explain the seeming lack of consideration for Palestinian life. Take a random person and ask him to choose between risking the life of his kid, who is in active service, in a military operation or throwing bombs and risking harming other civilians. Most people will choose to risk others. And among those who’ll choose to risk their kid, most would either be lying or didn’t really think about the question.
Furthermore, there’s an unwritten rule the ultra-orthodox parties do not involve themselves or even voice an opinion on military matters
Only this isn’t true Deri (of Shas and convicted felon) is in the war cabinet for crying out loud.
You are really naive if you think they don’t get a say in everything that goes on, and deliberately ignoring reality if you can’t admit that there diversion of funds for their own causes and communities has deprived the rest of the country not only of the security it needed on 7.10, but of health and social and community funding for everyone else, for decades.
The amount of power the ultra orthodox hold is obscene.
Also, he’s barred from being a minister as per Israeli’s supreme court ruling (exactly because he’s been convicted with fraud multiple times), so I highly doubt he could be appointed to the war cabinet even in theory.
One could argue that the ultra orthodox parties are active behind the scenes, but there’s no indication of that anywhere. Israel has free press, so this type of thing would probably come out as rumors at the very least (By contrast, there were reports he was the de-facto minister of social services after the supreme court ruling).
Not to diminish the political power they hold, but in this specific case there isn’t any indication they exert said power.
The assumption that direct familial involvement would make people more peaceful or make them take more ethical decisions is flat out incorrect. If anything it will make them more ruthless and dehumanizing against the “other” and seek even faster ways of total annihilation rather than difficult nuanced and diplomatic peaceful solutions. The military mindset is a very rigid one, with only rights and wrongs, blind obedience, the only nuance allowed is tactical nuance, the only complexity allowed is logistic complexity. Morally and ethically it’s always down to I’d rather the other die than me. The IDF once traded 1000 prisoners for 1 IDF soldier, what makes you think they will not kill 10000 children if it means it saves 1 soldier?
The IDF once traded 1000 prisoners for 1 IDF soldier, what makes you think they will not kill 10000 children if it means it saves 1 soldier?
Because… the moral considerations in both cases are completely different…? How is this even a question?
That’s like saying “He once bought a car for $50,000, what makes you think he won’t steal $500,000 if it meant getting a Tesla?”
I’m not familiar enough with this to answer your question. But I know for sure that Bibi’s brother, Yoni, was a war hero. He died in the line of duty. So it isn’t like they are completely disconnected from war.
And I think a ministers kid was killed in Gaza today.
That’s what I was referencing. Not that I want to say Israel is blameless or the West Bank expansion shit isn’t straight up evil colonialism shit, but its harder to write them off if they’re putting their own children in harms way in the furtherance of what I would otherwise dismiss as plain geopolitical thieving.
Yeah, I mean just because they have something staked on the outcome doesn’t mean that the state of Israel isn’t an apartheid state. I don’t think any state is good, but separating citizens based on race or religion seems pretty fucking evil. And it is worse when you take an indigenous peoples land. As an American, I feel this deeply since we followed this same path dispossessing indigenous people while enslaving Africans. Not great… and I hope we start to rectify those evils sometime soon.
But jews lived next to non Jewish Arabs in Palestine for generations peacefully. And Jewish Arabs lived peacefully all over the Middle East. But the nekba changed those dynamics. Arab Jews are discriminated against in Israel and a lot have been ejected from their old Arab countries. The whole thing of boiling a person down to their ethnicity or religion just is not a great thing.
There needs to be a political settlement soon. Palestinians deserve better and Israelis deserve peace.
How do most Israelis feel about the West Bank or are they aware of it?
Is the West Bank the foundational issue/disagreement?
Jews are indigenous to Israel too (backed by genetics and history). Also why are you so sure all Palestinians are indigenous to Israel? Studies have shown that there is a very good possibility that there has also been a large migration of Arabs into Palestine from the surrounding regions, as a consequence of conditions rapidly improving there.
Israel doesn’t separate people based on race and religion, there are Muslim Arab judges, cops, doctors, programmers, etc. A few years ago a bunch of programmers from Gaza got permission to work in Israel due to shortages - these guys are literally Arab, Muslim and come from enemy territory.
Arab Jews are discriminated against in Israel? You mean Mizrahi Jews which are the largest Jewish group in Israel and have the exact same rights as other people in Israel?
Or did you mean Arab Israelis who have the pleasure of living in (relative) freedom, when compared to Arabs elsewhere in the middle east (and as I stated before, also aren’t discriminated against)?
Israelis deserve peace, and Palestinians definitely deserve better - but it is their responsibility as a people to make their situation better. Israeli leadership currently sucks but the Israeli population in general has gone above and beyond in filling the void the government left. The same can be done by the Palestinians if they really wanted to, but it seems many of them really just want us dead at all costs.
If your main question is if it leads to more morally correct decisions, then that would be a very hard no.
Most people do believe they are doing the right thing. The Americans are, the Russians are and the Chinese are. They DO believe what they do is correct. Same with religion.
But does that make any of the above groups more correct than the other? The answer is: No, it’s their actions that shows that.
My point is, Israel will always think what they do is morally correct, no matter if it is or not. And when you act in that belief, you can justify almost anything in the world. Because you really think it’s the right thing to do.
Mabe morally correct isn’t quite the right notion. Maybe I was more getting at good faith plus worth the potential loss of a beloved member of their family for yhe greater good.
Its very easy to make abstract bloody decisions and send strangers children to war if it never hits close to home so I was playing with that notion as a nexus to getting a better understanding of why Israel would engage in Hydra-busting (West Bank expansion etc) if they were on the hook (in terms of their offsprings lives) for the collateral damage likely to result from such controversial and perilous efforts
Sounds like what you are trying to articulate is the idea of ethical relativism.
Descriptive moral relativism holds only that people do, in fact, disagree fundamentally about what is moral, with no judgment being expressed on the desirability of this.
