The Russians appear willing to make concessions. This is a skillful ploy to put us off our guard.
The quote
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
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Hasn’t this been Russia’s position the entire time? I’ve only ever seen them actively trying to have peace negotiations over the past decade, much to the chagrin and mockery of Ukraine and the West who declare it either SUBTERFUGE or WEAKNESS.
This headline in a western news outlet is, to me, more of an indicator to me that the West is now bored with this proxy war, wants to end it and is looking to save face.
Because Hitler also only wanted peace
Nice try Ruzzian shill, but we true defenders of liberal democracy know that Nazis are the good guys now, and RUSSIA is like the Nazis, who weren’t so bad really because they were fighting Russia, who is like the damn Nazis, who actually weren’t so bad bec
Is that what you call invading a sovereign country?
It’s not even like this is the first time Putin has invaded another sovereign country,
Ukraine isn’t a sovereign country and hasn’t been since the US couped their democratically elected leader. You can’t be a sovereign country if a foreign country has veto power over your elections.
A picture speaks a thousand words. So that must mean this picture speaks 1006 words.
I take your point though - I could be brainwashed by the propaganda. As could you. And we’re both certain that we’re not. Except my country actually has a free press, doesn’t imprison detractors, and has released the verifiable evidence of war crimes being committed.
The west doesn’t really need to do much propaganda - dropping bombs on cities, targeting civilian buildings and infrastructure, and launching a full scale invasion of a sovereign country speaks for itself.
I think you should take a look at your own post.
The west appears to have exactly the same policy they have had the entire time also - and that is: leave the sovereign territory of the other nation, and there will be peace.
And when Russia points out its really conspicuous how this is a standard only ever applied to them?
Russia says its their territory, Ukraine says its there’s. At this point there are literally only three options.
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Recognize Russia claim, cede the land, end the war and ukraine can go forward with the territory they have now. (Maybe they can even think about allowing opposition political parties and elections at some point.)
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Don’t recognize Russia claim, keep doing whatbwere doing and, as the west loves to say “fight to the last ukrainian”. Then there will be nobody left in Ukraine and Russia can take all of it (or Ukraine like, takes off weights and reveals it actually has more capacity to fight then they’ve been letting on for the whole counter offensive)
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Other countries back Ukraines claim and get directly involved in fighting Russia in a hot war, putin, Xi, and Biden grt to fight over the nuclear ashes.
Which of those would you prefer, because the solution I keep seeing from liberals “Russia decides to stop for no apparent reason, gives up goes home and gives all the land back” is not actually a realistic or even feasible outcome.
So I really want to know, which of the three real world options would you prefer, and again “I wave a magic wand and Russia gives up and goes home” is not one of them.
More whataboutism. You can’t use one atrocity to justify another, otherwise you’re justifying them all. That would be atrocious.
Why have you ruled out 1 option yet didn’t rule out Ukraine doing exactly what you’re saying Russia can’t do? Seems like you’ve been brainwashed.
I dont know what the answer is; but I do know that a million dead Russians and Ukrainians is an awful thing. I also know that Russia started the military action and could at any time return to its own territory and stop the dying. If Russia suddenly has some legitimate territorial claim then it should settle it through diplomacy, not with the blood of millions.
I also think it’s up to Ukraine to choose what it does, and everyone should support that decision. Currently only the west seems to support it…and because Russia hasn’t had its way its throwing its toys out the pram and trying to settle it with the blood of millions of innocents.
I wouldn’t have predicted it but Russia somehow did not take the L in this war, not that the eort of Russian collapse the west hoped for was ever feasible. I will say Hamas getting Ukraine thrown off the US military aid number one priority position was a sweet bonus for Russia. And it also shows the logistical issues in maintaining an empire. You can’t cover the globe despite how insane you might be. Power to the Houthis
I hope this is just preparation for a victory lap, maybe even just mocking them now because a lot of (pro-Russia) analysts already came to a conclusion the current borders are far from sufficient. Likewise it is almost impossible to conceive Ukraine will cede unoccupied territory so again, I’m not sure what he is trying to do here other than to take a piss.
The pre-war goals, the most important being NATO neutrality? You’d be a damn fool to believe this will be enforceable without Russian troops sitting within 15km of Kiev for the rest of eternity or something like that.
I hope this is just preparation for a victory lap
Nothing about this shit-show deserves a victory lap. It was the bloodiest and most pointless mass immolation of life and livelihood since Iraq. At the absolute best, Russians get to claim a charnel house littered with depleted uranium. More likely, they’ll be doing anti-insurgency across the country for decades, while the rest of Europe grows increasingly fascist and racist towards Slavs.
I’m not sure what he is trying to do here other than to take a piss
All wars are just a prelude to diplomacy. I think Putin is putting out interest now so he looks better on the international stage, before Biden loses the White House and Republicans come to the settlement table ready to kick this under the rug so they can pivot back to China.
The pre-war goals, the most important being NATO neutrality?
NATO gets to come out of this with more money, more members, and a renewed mandate to battle its age-old nemesis. I think NATO general staff might be the ONLY folks coming out of this for the best. Maybe with the exception of the Chinese, who have finally broken through the old Sino-Soviet split and as senior partners to boot.
You’d be a damn fool to believe this will be enforceable without Russian troops sitting within 15km of Kiev for the rest of eternity or something like that.
I don’t know how many Ukrainians are left standing to do the next Pickett’s Charge into Russian artillery fire. And given how easily Russian artillery has demolished critical infrastructure in and around Kiev, I hardly think they need to be west of Brovary to pose a threat.
The enforcement comes from Russian artillery placements. Donetsk will be at least as secure as Pyongyang.
It was the bloodiest and most pointless mass immolation of life and livelihood since Iraq
That’s crazy, how was this more pointless than Libya, Donbas, Afghanistan, Armenia, or Palestine? More bloody sure, but Russia’s reasons for entering are justifiable for national security
Don’t tell me that Russia thought getting sanctioned by the rest of the entire world and entering a proxy war in a massive country was somehow expected to be a net economic gain like everything the West has done since Iraq
More likely, they’ll be doing anti-insurgency across the country for decades, while the rest of Europe grows increasingly fascist and racist towards Slavs.
Not sure what your point here is, they were dealing with the Ukrainian nazis shelling donbass for almost a decade already, at least now there is a path towards some sort of normalcy while before there wasn’t? Like I’m not sure your point here this is very much a big victory for the Russian ethnic in eastern Ukraine.
You also don’t seem to realize Russian popular sentiment is already very invested into the outcome of this war. It is why Putin can’t be too soft, its why he was criticized when the Azov prisoners were exchanged even by regular right wing/nationalists. War support in Russia is not just a leftist cause and Russia will take pride in their “victory”.
Of course that doesn’t discount the human cost at all, but as I said the human cost was already there counted in the amount of missiles and shells hitting Donest city every day before the war.
The rest of EU? Everything is contingent on US support, nobody else has an army nor an economy to wage war and while they may be racist towards Slavs this is nothing but a mere continuation of the cold war.
But even more so Europe was always as much fighting among themselves as with outsiders, the EU neoliberal project is barely a generation old and the post-WW2 “normalcy” came at the cost of Germans bombing French and English/vice-versa to hell. Of course the capitalists on both sides were spared but my point is such “unity” is fickle at best historicaly it doesn’t take much for European countries to go to war against each other. Also remember how Spain/Greece/Italy got fucked in 2008 by German backed EU economic policies?
The same thing will keep happening. The racism against non-whites is barely a stop gap measure, EU fascism will turn inwards first before worrying about geopolitical issues. Anyway its not like said Italian or French fascist got any military power to do anything without US help anyway. Best they can do is continue to persecute non-whites/the poor at home.
they were dealing with the Ukrainian nazis shelling donbass for almost a decade already
The scale of conflict has escalated significantly since then. Casualties are in the hundreds of thousands.
You also don’t seem to realize Russian popular sentiment is already very invested into the outcome of this war.
American popular sentiment was very invested in the outcome of the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars two years into those conflicts. I don’t think that works in their favor. On the contrary, they’re exposed to a backlash if they do any kind of withdrawal or suffer another nasty run of casualties or tie the conflict back to a new economic downturn.
Everything is contingent on US support, nobody else has an army nor an economy to wage war and while they may be racist towards Slavs this is nothing but a mere continuation of the cold war.
For the time being. But a big role of the Bush Era State Department and beyond has been prodding EU/Middle Eastern states to arm up and get into these territorial fights. Turning European and Arab allies (and more recently Pacific states) into armed outgrowths of the US-based MIC. As fascist movements throughout Central Europe build up in popularity, and as states ramp up the size and scope of their domestic police forces, its easy to see conflict accelerate into border clashes and then open war.
That’s exactly what happened in Ukraine between 2006 and 2021. First, police forces ramped up. Then the conflict flared up into a decade long civil war. Finally, as the western bloc gained territory in Donetsk and the fighting spilled over the border, the conflict went international.
Why would this not happen in Poland or Hungary or Italy or Germany? Turkey is already in the thick of it and could easily be the next domino to fall. Syria almost tipped into civil war and international conflict thanks to US interventions. There’s nothing magical about these Western states that would prevent pogroms against Africans, Arabs, Slavs, and other Asian cohorts (particularly the Chinese) that would in turn flare up into wholesale street fighting and eventual interstate conflicts.
The same thing will keep happening.
I absolutely agree. But I don’t think the Russia-Urkaine war backstopped any of it. I only see it as the latest in a string of border classes and ethnic purges that Europeans will be conducting for the next century.
EU fascism will turn inwards first before worrying about geopolitical issues
Fascism never just stops inside the borders of a state. As soon as refugees start fleeing the state and businesses suffer and neighboring territories see attacks on their ex-pats as an attack on themselves, the conflict grows in scope.
Russia-Ukraine is the model for the future.
I haven’t finished thinking about it, but the idea of land redistribution to veterans as a way to stabilize the initial occupation of the western ukraine is interesting if nothing else.
Russia is screwed either way.
With China reconciling with the US after realizing that Russia’s tiny market simply could not absorb the loss of export to the US, it is clear that Russia will get the short end of the stick moving forward as China refuses to decouple from the US. Together with the demise of BRICS, with India pulling away and Argentina going its own way, Putin knows that Russia has to make concessions now or they will get even shittier deal if they wait longer.
It is fair to say that Russia and China have failed to bring down the empire. The world simply isn’t ready for it yet.
What? Where the fuck did you get the idea that China wants to decouple from the US? Or from anyone for that matter?
China hasn’t been involved in any of this shit. Bring down the empire? China doesn’t have to bring down the empire, it’s in decline and it’s never going to stop that decline. China just simply has to exist and it will rise to the top without an unprecedented intervention that the west is simply incapable of performing. America is already on the path the British empire was and will not reverse that.
I don’t know where you’ve gotten these ideas from but they’re just flat out wrong.
I’ve only been lurking and reading, not really speaking up about it but that’s kinda the trend I notice with their posts. A lot of them just come off as “USA stronk and Biden 5000 IQ 5-D Chess strategic mastermind, USA set to eviscerate and humiliate China and set in thousand infinite year reich. China weak, ineffective and pathetic and hopeless, USA only makes it look like China has a chance out of pity.” That’s not actually what they’re saying of course, but I’m just exaggerating for the reason stated below:
It’s actually seriously getting on my nerves.
That’s not what I’m saying and I’m sorry if it came across that way to you.
I know a lot of people here can’t wait to see the US empire eating shit. Indeed, I have often said that China and Russia were on their way of checkmating the US empire back in 2022, but for whatever reasons they stopped doing what they were doing and so much wasted opportunities this year allowed the global hegemon to breathe and regain its strengths.
Once you start to see the high level play of the US imperialists, it gets incredibly scary. Too many people see a senile president, a fumbling military operation and think the empire is crumbling into its own demise, but the empire’s spider web is cast far wider and deeper, and its bite far more venomous than most are seeing right now. Blink and you’ll miss it.
With China reconciling with the US
Name a single relevant and concrete concession, policy change or backstep China has taken in the last couple of months in context of this “reconciling with the US” that noticably diverges from their behavior 6 months or 12 months ago. Xi visiting the US and saying “lets all coexist peacefully mmmkey?” or signing some deal for soybeans or whatever doesnt sell the story to me
