I’ve been a DM for about 3 years, and have predominantly run one-shots and short campaigns in DnD5e and PF2e. I have a player who persistently builds primary caster based characters, but then won’t do anything in combat but “I stab it with my dagger.” They rarely use cantrips, and basically won’t cast a leveled spell unless I suggest it immediately before their turn. They seem to enjoy playing despite the fact that they’re far too squishy to be a front-line melee character and don’t utilize most of their class features. I’ve talked with them explicitly about how their play style seems to be discordant with the kind of play they want to do, and that maybe next time they should try a paladin/champion or a fighter/rougue subclass with some minor casting. They agreed at the time that sounded like a good idea, but low and behold showed up to the next one-shot with a primary caster, and over 3 hours of play and 3 combats never cast a single spell, including a cantrip.
I enjoy playing with this persons as a whole. They are engaged in the fiction, and are particularly engaged during exploration activities. They tell me they also find combat quite fun, and they are requesting I run a mega dungeon in the near future.
As a general rule, I like to let people play how they have the most fun, but issues have arisen with this play style. Namely, all of my TPKs have been associated with this player charging a squishy character directly up to a significantly stronger villain and continuing to stab it with a dagger until they went down, significantly hindering the party in the action economy and resulting in a TPK. I feel I have to intentionally weaken all of my encounters to keep the party feasible in the face of such mechanically poor combat choices.
What else can I do to help drive this individual towards melee builds, and/or help encourage them to change their play style to better suite the caster classes they choose?
It’s a tough spot to be in, having tried to coach them towards what would work. They might find being a martial class if they see great success in it. Perhaps a one shot where the players are all some martial build, to show how successful their playstyle would be with the right tools.
Another idea is to suggest classes like Monk or a psywarrior which can use “magic” but are more durable to hits and can skip their powers without losing 80% of their contribution to the fight.
Finally you can lean into it and have them play characters that are conscientious objectors to magic or are scared of it but they have a gift/been railroaded by their guardians. The party can adapt and roleplay around it and maybe encourage the player (in character no less) to use their abilities.
Hopefully one of these helps!
“I run up and stab it with my dagger!”
“Are you sure? As a wizard, your dagger is very ineffective and puts you in harm’s way. You could cast fire bolt from where you are standing. You’d have a better chance to hit, do more damage, remain safe, and play to your character’s strengths more. Do you want to do that instead?”
“I’m trying to save my spells for an emergency”
“Well fire bolt is a cantrip, so it never runs out and you can use it every turn like a fighter would use their weapon. Cantrips are the ‘auto-attacks’ for spell casters”
I can’t understand your situation OP if the exchange I described above isn’t the solution. I play with newbies and first timers all the time and we constantly strategize in combat so they can learn how to play as we go. Would your player really say “no, I don’t care, I stab them” after being presented with that option? If so, I think they are doing this intentionally because they think it’s funny or interesting, not because they don’t know better
I’ve noticed this behaviour in people that are unfamiliar with video games or board games.
They’re looking at it, with a very high level approach. Like someone who’s reading a book or watching a movie. It’s not their character, it’s just a character in a big story.
Another variant is the person who is rigidly following the quirk or backstory they’ve created. Sometimes to a level that they aren’t able to critically process. Overlooking it’s a cooperative game and that this type of character will not play well with the team.
Another concern is that new players who experience anxiety will take those hints from the DM and act on them like an order. Resulting in the player unplugging from the game and just doing what they’re told with minimal comprehension or the type that locks in on their action because it was challenged. (This is what caused me to break up with my bf)
I can see where you are coming from but OP assures us that this player knows about games and specifically makes caster characters. This isn’t one sorcerer with a quirk in their backstory about never using their magic, this is multiple characters in a row. I play with new players all the time. Maybe an occasional person will take others’ suggestions as law, but if they do the same thing too many times in a row or force themselves to use the move you recommended when it still doesn’t make sense, you just keep guiding them.
“Don’t forget you have other cantrips too. Using fire bolt was a suggestion. In this fight, you could try using your shocking grasp to get away. Or you could use your magic missile for some guaranteed damage on that heavily-armored hobgoblin. It uses one of your slots, but now seems as good a time as any. They’re no good to you when you’re dead.”
The DM and even the other players should be chiming in with suggestions on other players’ turns. It can get annoying when you know how to play and others are telling you what to do, but if you had a fighter player who just stood in combat and took a disengage action every turn, wouldn’t you eventually speak up and suggest they try a dodge or an attack instead?
That’s why I came to the community. I feel like I’m a reasonable and half-way experienced DM at this point. The player is aware cantrips are unlimited use. The player is a very intelligent individual. I’ve had the conversations about spell use. At its core, I genuinely think the player is attracted to the “cool factor” and “aesthetic” of playing a caster but doesn’t actually want to engage with any of the mechanics. I can remind the player about spells and that reminder will last for a combat, sometimes less. I feel like I’ve done everything I know to do aside from straight banning the player from playing full casters or queuing them to cast spells every-other turn, I’m at a loss.
You’ll have to start killing their character more often. They want to do front line tactics, they can take front line damage, no softballs. Oh, 1d10 kills you in 3 hits, and the mobs chase you because you’re squishy? Damn, maybe get some AC and constitution, or attack from a distance.
I go back and forth on this. I feel like I’m enabling these choices by pulling punches. But it feels excessively anti-fun to just kill them and be like “sorry lol be better”. I don’t think I have the heart to just murder characters all the time.
There’s really no right answer here and I don’t think it’s something that we can work through without that player involved in the conversation. It’s not that they don’t know better, it’s not that you haven’t helped them, it’s not that you haven’t made suggestions, and they’ve been doing this for 3 YEARS??? I’m sorry, but this is above my pay grade. I am almost certain there is some detail that I’m missing because this makes zero sense. I have played with veterans of all walks and ages, new players who are 8 years old, new players that are 60 years old, and everywhere in between. It just doesn’t make sense unless there’s more to it.
Sit down with the player again. Ask why they don’t use cantrips. Leave the leveled spells aside for now (saving them forever is a problem, but an understandable one). Continue to remind them every combat, every turn, every time they take out their dagger. I know you said your group doesn’t know the rules well, so maybe it’s time to learn (3 YEARS???). Cantrips and weapons work exactly the same, so I don’t know how “not wanting to engage with the mechanics” has anything to with it. There’s something going on and I can’t be sure what it is without talking to this player themselves
It’s not quite 3 years. I’ve been DMing for about 3. This player has been playing on-and-off for about 1.5. I have complicated the rules a touch because in the last 8mo or so I’ve switched to PF2e. I mean this problem in specific isn’t that system specific, so I don’t think that really excuses it.
But all-in-all you’re right. The most effective answer is find another group that is more invested in the game. I’m moving across the country in a few months, so I guess I should just ride the issue out a little longer and then move on, which is a huge bummer. I guess in the meantime I’ll try and remind them more regularly and once again have the conversation about “Why?”
Thank you
Is the player choosing a caster for “cosmetic” reasons, or because they don’t know better (like recycling the last character sheet)?
If the first, then maybe they could play a character who disguises as caster, or something along the lines.
If it’s the latter, then they would probably appreciate it if you helped them create a new character from scratch together.
I kind of thought half the reason for the class based system was to appeal to specific fantasies/wish fulfillments, though. My first thought concerning this problem is that maybe they’re playing the wrong caster class, different classes exist for different fantasies.
It’s my personal belief that the mechanics of the caster classes don’t lend themselves well to the fantasy of it.
Does there exist something similar to a spell sword? https://dndtools.net/classes/spellsword/
That might help with melee caster issue :)
Melee character disguised as a caster made me think of this https://images.app.goo.gl/gtWUQgs7VZYSZDux6
The solution is simple: Remove the dagger mid-combat.
You could make the dagger too hot to hold and it falls out of reach (off a mountain, into rushing water, etc…)
You could make the dagger dissolve away (through lava, acid, being eaten, etc…)
You could make something take the dagger (disarming, stealing, etc…)
A hag/genie/etc could place a curse on the PC (holding anything makes them experience immense pain and drop what they’re holding, anything dagger they hold is turned into a spoon, etc…)
Lots of good advice here already, but I would also suggest this: if they like playing a spellcaster but aren’t very familiar with the spells available, spell cards could be very helpful. If you don’t want to buy official ones, there are sites where you can print your own. I did this for one of our players and it helped her a ton.
This sounds best. Half these answers are off-putting for someone not well-versed in the game, for someone who probably has more experience with the dork clique stereotype of DnD rather than near-personal experience. Asking the group if this person’s play style is detrimental to their fun will reinforce that. I don’t see anywhere here where OP actually asks why they don’t cast. Are they picking the spells strategically or just guessing? Do they want to be a caster or just wear a robe and have a beard?
Exactly. The way I see it, there are a few possibilities:
They like the wizard aesthetic but prefer melee combat. Seems unlikely since you’d think they would have picked a different class and flavored them as an inept magic user.
They want to play this funny character idea at the expense of their party. Dick move but also seems far-fetched considering how good they are as a player otherwise.
They want to be a useful spellcaster but they haven’t gotten a grasp of the rules quite yet. I’m really leaning towards this being the case, especially considering this:
They rarely use cantrips, and basically won’t cast a leveled spell unless I suggest it immediately before their turn.
So they want to use spells but they’re unsure of the best time and place to use them? As a DM I’m thinking: ok, lets get you some spell cards so you have descriptions handy, maybe share your spell list with other players so they can help you decide what to use and I’ll do my best to remind you of which spells work best in different scenarios!
