Unpopular opinion: Cop pay and training is inadequate. If you want professional cops, you need to hire professional people and train them professionally. The only people that apply to become officers are morons and the power hungry. People with integrity don’t apply because the money is shit.
Any job that trades money for fraternity is a job that’s garbage. And boy oh boy are cop houses frats.
That’s a fun myth not at all backed up by fact.
My job is orders of magnitude more dangerous and I make less than an officer with the same amount of experience.
For reference average around here is ≈40k while an officer with equivalent experience to me is 90-100k.
I mean it’s partially a myth in terms of pay, but I wouldn’t really be opposed to officers having more training, especially for crisis intervention, and shit like that, training for when they actually have to interact with people face to face, rather than pseudo-military tacticool bullshit.
Cop pay and training is inadequate
For what though? That’s the problem. They have to do a lot of different things, and they’re not trained well in any of them.
They have to deal with homeless people who are trespassing. They have to deal with people having mental issues. They have to deal with domestic disturbances. They have to deal with violent crime. They have to investigate thefts. It’s really a grab-bag of different jobs, and they’re not trained well in any of them.
Making it worse, the training they do receive focuses on violent crime. And, in particular, the training is how to survive the most violent possible criminal who is actively trying to kill them. That’s what the TV shows are all about, but it’s not what the job is about 99.99% of the time. Only 27% of officers say they have ever fired their guns in their entire careers. If they’re always thinking about this worst-case scenario, they’re not going to be doing very well at any of the other jobs.
It’s not that they don’t get enough training. They are trained to do the wrong things. A lot of their training is basically desensitizing to shooting at people. They are trained like soldiers: you see something - shoot at it. They should be trained in de-escalating instead. No additionally to the desensitizing, instead.
As a former soldier who has worked with officers they are 100% not trained anything like us.
Your comment is entirely baseless and comes from someone who doesn’t actually understand nor have any experience in either policing or military service.
“Desensitization” is not a specific course offered by either services. The entire point of training in military service is to ‘train how you fight’ there is NO desensitization training, there is training that promotes self control, self discipline and of course trigger discipline, learning when not to shoot is as important as learning when to shoot.
Police are given inadequate training in all avenues and if they had anything remotely resembling military training (especially our de-escalation and negotiation training) they wouldn’t be even a quarter as trigger happy as they are currently.
So in military you don’t train by shooting at human shaped targets? You’re not trained to shoot quickly at pop-up targets? You don’t have hand-to-hand combat training? What do you think it’s all for? Self control? BS.
Police does the same. They often run simulation after simulation in which they have to fire quickly at simulated people. It all serves the same purpose: remove the natural mental blockades people have that stop them from killing other people. Is desensitize them.
No need to get triggered. I’m not saying cops are trained as well as soldiers. Just that they often use the same techniques.
Cops in my area get paid about 70-100K USD yearly, but it’s a high cost of living area. Sergeants and above, though, make bank. We’re taking $120K and above. They’re just as shitty as cops in the sticks. It’s anecdotal, but I wonder if fixing income alone has little effect.
Low bar and high pay? Huh.
Yeahhh they need a higher bar. And then the pay to match that.
The other thing is that the bar should be for going over not under. They have standards for maximum intelligence and won’t hire people who are too smart.
There should be a 2 year criminal justice degree requirement. It requires more schooling to be a fucking barber than it does to be an armed police officer, and a massive number of them couldn’t quote basic laws, let alone explain them.
I would also posit there needs to be at least 6 months of situational simulations in proper threat engagement and another 4 months in situation de-escalation training. The fact I had more peace-officer training as a combat arms trade is ludicrous.
There’s vastly more to being an officer of the law than just hitting the target range and that shows with the number of issues presented every year.
I think it’s kind of a multi-tiered issue. What you say is true, but police are also kind of structured in the way they are in the US because we have so many issues that we basically use them as a band-aid for, so we spread them very thin and kind of go with a quantity over quality approach. Which hasn’t ended up working out very well, except in that, sometimes, and particularly for your white middle class neighbors that are going to call the cops for a noise complaint, cops appearing is basically the only thing that they needed to do. It’s just for security theater, just so you can have an interlocutor that can do all the work of dealing with someone else for you, at your behest. A cop is just kind of meant to be around in order to make your dwindling population of middle class white people feel safe, more than they’re supposed to actually make everyone safe. Such is why private institutions in a lot of places basically just have their own LARP cops in the form of security guards, who just stand around 95% of the time, and eat up way more in salary than they would save from product losses, or increased insurance premiums on product.
You pair this with the actual built environment in a lot of places, where cops have to be even more spread out than they otherwise would be, enforcing traffic tickets and shit like that, and it’s kind of an obvious formula for a shitshow. Even if you gave police departments just straight up more money, three times as much, you’d still probably see complaints that they’re underfunded, because they’d just spend all the money on hiring more people, and more equipment, rather than making a smaller number of people who are maybe better equipped to deal with, say, psychological problems that somebody might have. And obviously, in such a case, you’re not going to get a better return on investment, than had you, say, dumped all the money into infrastructure that could’ve benefited your community, created jobs, lifted people out of poverty, and decreased the systemic causes of crime.
Any human with a job should have a living wage and proper training imo. Cops are no different.
I don’t think that training (of which they have a lot, most of it to my knowledge teaches them that they are at war with citizens and always in danger) is the entire answer.
We need to figure out what we want cops to do.
To my knowledge:
- Cops have no duty to protect citizens
- Cops can steal our property (in traffic stops)
- Cops can murder us with minimal justification and expect minimal consequences. Indeed even lawsuits are paid by the city and not the police budget
- Cops are immune to prosecution in most cases.
So, why do we have them? They seem to be an armed gang that waits for us to commit a traffic infraction and then write us a ticket and possibly kill us or steal our property. They have no duty to protect us from criminals or disasters and if they get scared and kill us, at worse they transfer to a new department.
I think we need law enforcement and police, but the current system is irrecoverably broken imo. They have had decades to reform themselves and haven’t done so unless under duress from a court. We need to rethink why we have them and what their job is. Indeed if we want them to have a dangerous job where they protect us from “things” and put themselves in harms way they need to be compensated properly, but I don’t think we can fix the current system.
I got off on a tangent, my apologies.
So, why do we have them?
I think it’s a pretty common narrative that police agencies came about as a result of slave catchers and strikebreakers, thought I’m not sure to what extent that’s true, and to what extent that’s been the case with, say, police in the UK, or other countries, who obviously still have police forces with different reputations than those in the US.
In any case, even if the narrative might not necessarily be accurate, it’s still somewhat reflective, to me, at least, of what police are supposed to do in the modern day. They have no duty to protect citizens, they steal our property, they can kill us, and they’re immune to the law. They are the law, is basically what it is. They are an armed gang, they’re an armed gang that the city pays in order to manage all other forms of violence which might happen in the city, even systemic violence which the city might create from, intentional or otherwise, resource mismanagement. They deal with the homeless, and mentally ill, and push them into a prison system where for-profit and public prisons can use them for free labor and generally lock them away into chaotic, meaningless, and authoritarian microcosms of society.
We also need homelessness to be rampant as a kind of threat, which we can levy against labor, since a population which can quit their jobs and go and still have a house obviously has more leverage against their employers, a higher capacity to unionize and strike. Homelessness also means housing is in more demand which helps drive up housing prices as long as you are trafficking the homeless away from the housing, when, otherwise, homelessness would generally decrease the value of the housing in a neighborhood since they would just kinda stick around, being, even formerly, embedded and tied to a community. Drugs need to be illegal as a form of protection on intellectual property laws, enforced at the behest of pharmaceutical companies, who want to monopolize particular sectors of the market, and sell to our extremely privatized hospitals at an absurdly high premium. The police serve these interests, and more. That’s their purpose. They just exist as an extension of society and serve it’s whims. They exist, basically, to maintain status quo, good, or, in this case, bad.
I’m a combat veteran and the fact that cops aren’t held to half the standards I was drives me nuts.
Vet as well that worked with a few police departments and was planning to transfer to a department post service. I was completely dismayed that I had better training in every single aspect of policing than the departments I had worked with, as a combat arms trade.
Needless to say, but I didn’t become a cop.
they dont want professional cops.
They want hyper aggressive bullies that have no problem with getting down and dirty with the corruption.
Profesionals would be a threat to cops. Which is why they try so hard not to hire anyone that would actually be qualified for such work.
Afaict the money is pretty good.
You’re totally right about the training though.
They literally reject candidates who are too intelligent.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
The money is only shit if you’re ethical. https://divestspd.substack.com/p/nearly-50-seattle-patrol-officers
One commenter added some critical context to the story:
I actually just read about this, early today. I think two things were involved here, neither of which were mentioned in this article:
The officer served (2) tours overseas. Seeing the lasting affects a tour in Afghanistan has had on a relative, I believe this officer has undiagnosed PTSD which impacted his reaction here.
The officers had reason to believe Jackson owned/possessed a firearm with a suppressor. The sound of a suppressed 9mm isn’t terribly dissimilar from an acorn falling on sheet metal.
So it’s a story about the absolute state of mental healthcare in the US after all.
Doesn’t matter if it was a perfect replay of an exact recording of the weapon they expected to be facing. He emptied a clip into an unknown target with no visual confirmation.
A pistol with a suppressor on it is still loud as fuck though. You would have been able to hear it in the cam footage. Also, these are the kinds of situations that happen when you get soldiers trained to kill to come back and play police duty with civilians. Its inexcusable, even if he does have PTSD.
Fact is that guns with silencers are still really loud with silencers, correct. Not like in the movies… with normal ammunition. In that case, the sonic boom is what you hear. But with subsonic ammunition and a slightly larger silencer it is really very quiet and can sound like in the video or in movies almost. It’s hard to find on youtube because very few people want to shoot with such weak cartridges + with a silencer additionally, but if you’re really interested you can find it. If I remember after work I can look for another demonstration and post it here. if you are interested.
https://youtube.com/shorts/_1GRjRH9tKA? https://youtu.be/9c36ujvK9bs? basically just the mechanical parts that are audible. still not like the movies but pretty close. In person i felt like it’s actually less loud than in these vids depending on the gun.
I am loathe to use the word retarded… but I just have no other words to describe this.
Is it lemmy.world filtering out words they don’t like? Who is censoring free speech? Why am I seeing removed everywhere?
When the founding fathers wrote the first amendment, they specifically aimed to protect unrestricted use of slurs on private web services. /s
It’s a trauma reaction tbh. Huge red flag that they need to be in therapy.
How is this a trauma reaction?
This is a big old pussy with a gun who doesn’t have the functioning braincells to think.
Being a cop is dangerous for everyone around you, not you yourself
He has no known history of trauma. He was, IIRC, a special forces officer that was deployed (Afghanistan?), but he never saw combat operations.
This is more likely the result of being trained that everyone is out to kill cops, that cops are the “sheep dogs”, and that they need to be ready to kill people at a moment’s notice (“Killology”).
If there is no trauma before the police academy, it’s created and cultivated in the academy.
Isn’t the training period only like a couple of weeks. I feel like that’s not long enough to learn to be a cop. At least not a good cop.
When I learnt to be a network admin, the training course was a year, and I’ve never shot anyone so clearly the longer training works.
The only good thing to be said is that for a short time there was one less cop car pulling over black people, then it came back from the body shop.
And yet the most surprising thing about the story is that the bodycam footage was released, smh
Not even close. The most surprising thing is that the cop resigned, by far.
Likely to protect the cop/department too, since he shot at his own car that already had a disarmed, detained suspect inside. He very nearly killed someone that was already a non-threat. If the body cam footage got out it might make people think their cops are negligent or improperly trained! /ghasp
It’s like a business. If the liability rests with their officer and they are afraid of a lawsuit causing significant political blowback they are going to take action against the officer to minimize their liability. Hearing about an officer doing something like this and then leaving the force means there is nothing left for them to take action for.
If he didn’t resign, perhaps it would be slightly harder for the chief a town over to hire the guy, but since he resigned he may have minimal marks on his record.
I’d bet a thousand bucks this guy gets another job as a cop within 1yr though.
