I don’t think 20+million people have been killed in that conflict, so the scale isn’t quite there. I do agree it’s a genocide with a false pretense of defensive military operations. Israel needs to slow it’s roll though because without US backing it doesn’t exist in the region.
It doesn have to have exactly the same number of people die. It’s a genocide and they’re literally trying to kill all of the Palestinians. It’s not about matching numbers, it’s about the definition.
It’s like no one is reading my second line. I don’t disagree that it’s a genocide. An unimaginable 20+million died because of the German extermination in WWII. The numbers are a poor comparison, everything else matches up.
No lines after the first one. Make it any more correct. A holocaust is a Hebrew term referring to a sacrifice in which the offering was burned completely on an altar.
There is no way in which it was appropriate to use within the context of world war II. That is inappropriate to use now. After all, Holocaust is not the Hebrew term for 20 million.
I virtually agree with most of what you said after that first sentence. The question is why did you feel the need to post that first sentence however.
Fuck them and let them keep it up, then we pull out, and then they get what they deserve
Israel is a Terrorist group based on Nazi ideology.
Israel is a Terrorist group based on Nazi ideology.
Zionism. Zionism is that group.
Here is an excellent historical review of zionism, and how it came from the same ideology that led to Nazism:
https://www.youtube.com/live/xCb95keaiI8?si=WmfHSj81-WNQ_Fjp&t=1470
I remember when people poo-pooed Zionism as a Nazi right wing conspiracy theory.
Propaganda usually uses truth as its base so that the claims are more believable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
To be fair. So much about the Nazis was. But as they say. Stopped clock and all. It gives me some hope however, that someday after it’s far too late. People will finally realize that claims of Republicans being a fascist movement over much of the last century. Were not some nutty conspiracy theory either.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/live/xCb95keaiI8?si=WmfHSj81-WNQ_Fjp
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
As someone from Germany, reading this makes me angry.
I don’t have the solution for this conflict, but when seeing the concentration camps in my country and understanding how much they must have hated Jews that they aimed to kill EVERYONE of them…
This is not the same! We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year. Otherwise, they could have stayed there during the last invasion.
The holocaust comparison does not help anyone.
Edit: Very nice… Downvoting different views on this comparison without sharing arguments… Closing the door for discourse is always very useful!!!111 There is actually much we could agree on regarding this war, but yeah, go ahead and dislike me for not sharing your view that this is like the Holocaust. I’m from Germany where we visited tge remains of concentration camps twice during school time… What do I know…? :/
AfD voter detected.
Edit: just to be clear in case you are genuinely uninformed, a good starting point for understanding why shit goes down in Gaza right now and why Israel is wrong is as simple as reading the Wikipedia page for example. It did not start with October 7.
This is not about a “different” point of view.
- The AfD is a waste of oxygen, so you are wrong about that.
- I wrote about the “last invasion” in my post, so I think, it’s obvious that I know that something happened before the massacre last year.
Here is one more example why especially Germany does also not see “the time before” as a holocaust and thinks that the comparison is bullshit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66741336
Two things can both be bad without being equally bad.
The war has been terrible. But do you really think it’s been as bad as Treblinka or Babi Yar?
Agreed. However just so you understand, we have two different things here. One thing happened in the past and concluded. We got knowledge of it after the fact. It’s well documented and remembered.
The other one started happening right around the previous one concluded, and is happening right now. We have the awareness of it, but the beholders are largely powerless to stop it, while the powers that could stop it put more fuel on the fire instead or look the other way.
Edit: let’s also take OP’s opening statement apart. “As someone from Germany”. Okay? That makes them some sort of expert on the topic? Are they trying to appeal to authority? Or is this a form of gatekeeping, that if something is not as bad as the Holocaust was, then it can’t be bad or genocide?
In case you haven’t noticed the blocade of Israel on Food, Water and Energy for Gaza (not to mention their destruction of hospitals in there) and Israel’s very own propaganda attack on the biggest humanitarian help organisation in Gaza - the UNWRA - which was without hesitation, disgracefully and shamefully used by countries such as Germany and the US to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive, the Israeli Government is most definitely trying to starve Gazans to death, which is cheaper than using Zyklon B but the outcome is the same (it’s actually worse as starvation is a very painful and very slow way to die whilst Zyklon B was faster and painless).
It’s not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet but the Israeli government (along the nations “unwaveringly” supporting this genocide such as the US and Germany) are most definitelly trying hard to either mass murder Gazans (in many ways, from bombing them to destroying their healthcare facilities and starving them) or pushing them out using terror and starvation as weapons.
Just because the concentration camp in Palestine called Gaza doesn’t look like a bunch of sheds with old fashioned razor wire around it but instead looks like an overcrowded city with walls and patrols around it and Israeli gunboats patroling the coast, you haven’t yet seen hundreds of films made in Hollywood decrying it (and probably never will: notice how the biggest massacre ever, in Rwanda, has no fancy Hollywood movies reminding us of it), and the sharpshooters murdering women and chidren in it don’t zig heil each other, doesn’t mean this is not a modern version of the Holocaust in the making.
You stop the Holocaust before it becomes a proper Nazi-level mass murder of people due to their etnicity, you don’t just wait until it becomes “just like the Nazi Holocaust” all the while excusing your inaction with “it’s not quite like the Nazi Holocaust [yet]” only to turn around after it reaches Nazi-Holocaust levels and claim “there’s nothing we could’ve done”.
to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive
Where is the point where you mention that there is proof that multiple (at least 12, maybe more) UNWRA people have actually been involved in the massacre on Israel last year? Oh, you ignored that fact…
which is cheaper than using Zyklon B
Reading this is disgusting.
It should be clear that the more people get killed there, the harder it is for Israel to get support from the Western world in the future. There is no reason to do what the Nazis did and “kill as much as possible of a specific group” here.
It’s not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet
So, you think, it’s only a “Mini-holocaust”? Or a “10% holocaust”? I’d suggest not using the word if it does not fit.
To make this a more productive dialog: Given the fact that what happened can’t be undone: What would you suggest Israel to do now?
There is no proof!
“Israel says” is the entirety of the “proof” and anybody who activelly helps one side of the conflict starve the civilians of the other side based on nothing but the “word” of the side that’s doing the starving are cold calous biased sociopaths and if that bias is because of the etnicity of the people on those sides, that makes them cold, calous racist sociopaths, and that racist motivation is painfully obviously in this case for nations such as Germany and the US because for years their politicians have been harping on and on about Israel being a “Jewish Nation”, something wholly irrelevant for anybody but a racist.
I don’t suggest shit for Israel to do because they’re as out of control as the Nazis once were and will not do the right thing without being forced to do it (and they’ve became like that because of the unwavering support of large racist nations)
The fairest solution for that is the two state solution according to the borders set in the agreement that was done way back by Isaak Rabin and Arafat - the very same that Bibi totally undermined in his first time on government after one of his supporters murdered Isaak Rabin - and that has to be imposed on Israel by the rest of the World through massive sanctions and a blockade, and before that happens this racist sociopath shit of “unwavering” support because of the etnicity of its people for a nation committing massive atrocities against civilians of a different etnicity, has to stop.
Germany is siding with racist sociopath mass murders because of their race, AGAIN, and that, at least for me, it’s a huge dissapointment because thinking that any act, no matter how horrible and how driven by deep racism, is excusable because of the etnicity of those doing it, is the way of thinking that was used to underpin support for Nazism.
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis. Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc. So the Israeli’s opted to treat the Palestinians like sub humans. Treating an entire country as subhumans… For decades… has consequences.
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis.
Is this even true? As far as I know, there are more people in Israel than people in Westbank + Gaza combined.
Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc.
There are some common solution suggestions (2-state-solution or even 3-state-solution) which don’t require giving Palestinians rights in Israel, but rather rights in their own state(s).
So many Palestinians live outside of Palestine. Imagine if their homes haven’t been bulldozed over the last few decades or settlements haven’t been built around the last few “Palestinian towns.” They would have been able to flourish instead of this mess where they get to watch invaders destroy old villages.
Germany’s role as a moral shield for Israel’s genocide is the most disgusting part of this whole ordeal.
I’ve read about the Staatsräson with some bemusement. It seems that Germany’s lesson from the Holocaust is not that there should be no more genocide but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country rather than making the Palestinians pay for your crimes for the last 75 years.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country
Sounds fancy, but this is as realistic as a permanent peace with Gaza as long as it is controlled by the Hamas terrorists that have the main goal to destroy Israel.
Staatsräson
In Germany, the word is criticised, because of the “Interpretationsspielraum” (“wiggle room”).
but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
There are multiple German politicians warning about a disaster in Rafah, about flooding tunnels with sea water, etc. Acting like Germany is cheering “Well done, go on!!!” is far away from the truth.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
Interesting, because Germany was and is kind of well aligned with the Western World for the last decades…
I don’t necessarily agree with every point from the previous poster, but saying Germany is in line with the western world isn’t exactly a defense because the western world hasn’t exactly been above reproach for the last 25 years. There is a lot of Muslim blood on several countries hands. I understand that you argued that the Palestinians struck first, but when you look at the overall death toll, it’s pretty clear that it isn’t the west getting slaughtered on a regular basis in the last decades.
I didn’t realize you were THE concentration camp expert. Perhaps I should go to you the next time I need a “proper definition” of what concentration camp and genocide is? My apologies.
No it hasn’t.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz, were almost exclusively extermination camps meant to wipe out whoever entered on an industrial scale. Gaza is not an extermination camp.
The “normal” concentration camps weren’t significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons and does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz…
So what. What do you want me to say?: “Well OK, Hitler was better at making concentration camps.”
The “normal” concentration camps weren’t significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
For the last few decades, getting aid into Gaza has been difficult. Isreal has refused to relinquish it as it’s own territory; even though it was obvious these people don’t want to be Isreali.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons
Isreal has Biden on speed dial; why do Gazan children need to build wepons for Isreal?
does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
You are right. They got punished for staying on their land. The issue is you don’t understand why Palestinians are punished. Not being Jewish is NOT a crime. Speaking Arabic is not a crime. Imagine if you go tell the French, “All Roman Catholic Latin speakers need to go back to Rome.” Palestinians are a natural product of history. History did not stop in when Israel fell in 722 BC or when Judah fell in the 500s BC.
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
A ghetto? In what context is Gaza a ghetto? A ghetto is supposed to be an impoverished part of a city. Israel has caused that whole side of the country to be a locked down and short of resources; including the areas around the city.
For me, this sounds like you want to say something that sounds cool, rather than something you actually believe. It sounds driven by emotion rather than by rationality.
The lemmy community gives you upvotes, the historians would ask you WTF you are doing and send you an invitation to actually visit what has been such a concentration camp.
Just because it’s not a Nazi camp, doesn’t mean it isn’t a camp. European Jews don’t own the trademark on misery (even if they had misery in the recent past).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service. If you think that “Benjamin von Papen” or “Itamir Ben-Hitler” are off-base (as opposed to merely edgy) you know neither our own history, nor anything about the current state of Israeli politics.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
The German foreign service has been stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Israel for quite a while, now. “Israel has a right to exist, Jews have a right to a place they can legitimately call home and feel safe in” vs. “A fascist Israel is not a safe home for anyone, including Jews”. Language-wise they always emphasise the former while when you look at UN votes, aid spending etc. the emphasis is on the latter.
The difference to historical Germany is, pretty much, that constitutionally speaking Israel is still in the Weimar stage and somehow unlike Germany back then isn’t engaged in a right-out shooting war between civil society factions. Kahanites are way better at optics than the NSDAP ever was, knows how to spin things abroad, “bombing civilians is self-defence”. They also have a convenient fig-leaf in Palestinian fascists (Hamas), and vice versa. There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security, fascists simply aren’t interested in that they want to continue their eternal war, it’s where they derive their power from.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like “holocaust”, “concentration camp”, “genocide”, … like it’s their default vocabulary to build sentences.
There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security
I agree with that part.
And in my opinion, for Plastinian freedom and a secure Israel, Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Kahanites want all of the territories. Netanyahu (not strictly a Kahanite) wants all of the territories. Different policies do not imply different goals and that’s even presupposing that it’s different policies: The West Bank is getting cut up into small enclaves surrounded by settler-controlled regions, if that goes on just a bit longer then there’s going to be a thousand individual Gazas there.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like “holocaust”, “concentration camp”, “genocide”, … like it’s their default vocabulary to build sentences.
Possibly. But you shouldn’t be so pedantic as to not understand the meaning behind what people say, it might be different to what the same words would mean if they were to come out of your mouth.
The ICJ case isn’t looking good for Israel, though, given that they’re in gross violation of the preliminary injunction: That “Israel is required to let adequate humanitarian aid through” bullet point was a piece of rope and the war cabinet is hanging itself with it instead of climbing out of the hole they dug for themselves.
Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
Two states is getting less and less viable, the settlers have made sure of that. Maybe a one-state solution in the image of Belgium: Strong cultural and political independence but, very crucially, one army.
Oh oh, you have a different opinion than the majority… Now, it’s raining arguments against you.
Oh, wait… It isn’t. It’s raining downvotes instead, because some people can’t handle a different view on that emotion-driven holocaust comparison above.
This shit needs to be said. Zionists are using Nazi tactics. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Exactly, Lula is only saying the same thing as millions of other people who don’t have a world stage to say it on.
@Mokopa yeah. I agree with Lula that it’s a genocide and it’s good seeing another world leader have the balls to say it.
I don’t agree with the part where he says nothing like it has happened in history. There’ve been multiple genocides, not just this and the holocaust.
No, this is different (they all are really). We have a dictator and his government lackies on TV boasting about the genocide they’re committing, we have constantly updated footage of them doing the ethnic cleansing, it’s all live and in our faces.
