It’s not exactly a fair comparison, the tweaks in the bottom panel aren’t necessary for most users to do, yet a new user to Linux will need to get over a learning curve to do fairly basic tasks.
My litmus test for when Linux will be “ready” is can you do everything you need to do without using the terminal. So far I’ve yet to see a distribution that has achieved this.
The closest thing I’ve seen is SteamOS.
What about Mint or PopOS? Also I don’t agree with your definition of “ready”. The stigma around the terminal must go! the current state of linux on ANY popular distro is: everyting can be done via GUI but some things are just easier to do in the terminal and it’s not linux’s faulth that terminal is just so good
There’s no stigma with the terminal, the terminal isn’t bad, I love the terminal.
However, it’s not grandma friendly. It never will be. You need to think less about your preferences and more about a truly novice user. Most people don’t want to tinker with their machines, they just want it to work.
Manjaro has a pretty great out of the box experience, everything just works via the GUI, including software management (and even pulling packages from the Arch AUR repos).
I use the terminal out of preference, and because it’s where I’m comfortable, but I can’t think of any situation it’s actually needed for general desktop use.
SteamOS is the only good linux experience I have had, that’s mostly due to the fact it’s made specifically for the hardware that is running it.
Do you mind mentioning the others you’ve tried and what snags you hit?
I’ve worked with Arch, Linux Mint, Ubuntu, and SteamOS, and I would say that while arch and Ubuntu can have a learning curve, Linux Mint is on par with SteamOS in usability.
I went through an episode of trying to swap to Linux about a year ago.
I tried Arch, got it all setup but had issues with smoothness just on the desktop. Tried Wayland and didnt work well with Nvidia, after trawling through random fixes to attempt, gave up.
I tried PopOS, just because it was apparently the best out of the box for games, which setup was easy, but again it was sluggish.
I went back to Arch again, got it setup and thought I would just put up with the laggy dragging of windows, to give the rest a chance. I use a slightly advanced audio setup on Windows with Voicemeeter and could not get a similar setup working on Arch. I couldnt even use apps such as Discord in the same way, along with other little things piling up I just went back to Windows which “just works”.
I was running multi-monitor and apparently there’s no simple support for mismatched refresh rates and Nvidia GPUs still have trouble in general.
I run a Pi and Linux is great for that, I like it, but in my opinion Linux is far from becoming a good Desktop OS.
I set up Linux Mint for my parents a few months ago. Never touched the terminal, everything was done in Mint’s UI; the initial installation, Timeshift setup, theme customizing, app installations for Spotify, OnlyOffice, VLC, and Chrome, automatic updates, printer and scanner setup.
Butter smooth so far.
Yeah I honestly rarely use the terminal on my mint install. And that’s even as a developer.
To be fair I initially had to do some odd tweaks at first, namely getting my keyboard function key working how I wanted. But even that was just editing some config files, and a non-power user probably wouldn’t have the kind of mechanical keyboard I have anyway.
That is impossible. It’s like saying for Windows “can you do everything that you can do in a GUI, in PS or cmd”. That can never come true because the OS was just never designed that way.
Likewise, in Linux or any other POSIX compatible OS, you can’t expect that. Everything UI related is designed to just be a wrapper around the shell. You can’t expect everything to be configurable through a UI when everything in that OS is designed to run in the terminal (a few exceptions, but generally, yes, this is true).
Meanwhile if you wanna play a game on linux you have to research on forums with neckbeards that act all high horsey and get mad at you for asking questions they deem simple. If they do answer its cryptic like: “oh you just use simplinuxuser-bash-sh bro”. Then by the time you get the game to run you better hope its not on a laptop with integrated graphics and a nvidia card because by god making the game only see the nvidia card over the integrated graphics if the game doesnt have the option to swap which card youre using good luck to any new user.
Windows users just go to steams website, install steam, install game, play. Windows 10+ will install basic nvidia drivers without you doing anything at first bootup with internet connection. Look, I use linux, windows, macos in my house…windows is still my primary driver even with my steam deck being a close second these days. Im all for linux getting more use but its not easy stop acting like it is…its a hobby, its fun, thats it.
Sorry, but you haven’t used Linux seriously, then. Things were pretty hard 20 years ago when I switched to Linux desktops only, but today it’s really is simpler to install Linux than windows./, talking from own experience. Installing Ubuntu is the usual 15-20 minutes breeze while windows 11 was a very painful 7 hour multi day process. It starts at downloading, the iso is like 4 times bigger. A typical windows issue l, as everything on windows is bloated to death.
Then writing the ISO onto a USB requires a very specific writer because apparently only that one worked for windows 11 (which is a typical Microsoft bullshit problem, let’s not use standards, let’s ensure it’s only workable with tools they want you to use). Figuring that out required going into forums and whatnot
Then the install process crashed in step 2 with a typical error 000000000010000 or something like that, it’s been a while, so I don’t remember the exact code, but more searches and forums revealed that tadaaah, windows 11 requires some specific bios setting for my hardware (standard MSI AMD board) or it wouldn’t work. Obviously no clear error message, just some vague code. Linux worked fine btw, it was already installed before on a separate m.2
Then there was an issue with the license key that I don’t recall anymore, it’s been a few months ago and I’ve literally been trying to forget the experience. Coat a few extra hours, still.
Then, hours later already, I cn actually start the install. Effin yay. There are what feels like hundreds of screens and crap to click through, loads about windows wanting to steal my soul with ads and monitoring and please sir, but some more crap you don’t want!
I installed Linux on a Saturday, started onwindows 30 minutes later, and finished windows about a week (and about 7 hours total work time) later.
Windows SUCKS because it’s been designed to work well for Microsoft, Linux may have issues but it’s been actually getting better every time over the past 25 years.
On servers? Don’t get me started, windows is a sad sad joke, I don’t even take it seriously. Watching windows administrators do their “work” is just one big “whyyyy??”
Should I mention your android phone is Linux too?
Saying Linux is only for a hobby is beyond short sighted. Sorry bout the rant but it irks me when people casually mention it’s a hobby because they don’t really know it, then happily leap back into the daily grinder that is windows
Windows users just go to steams website, install steam, install game, play. Windows 10+ will install basic nvidia drivers without you doing anything at first bootup with internet connection
Linux users just go to steams website, install steam for their system (or use flathub), install game, play. Linux will install basic nvidia drivers (Nouveau) without you doing anything at first bootup.
Linux gaming is super simple. The only suckage comes from intrusive AntiCheat/AntiTemper software some developers deem absolutely necessary.
I don’t think you are playing any game on Nouveau driver at this moment. Fortunately, most nvidia driver is a one click install on popular distro. Except if you are on fedora workstation and secureboot, then you will need to register the secureboot key.
I had quite the opposite experience. Middle of last year, reinstalled Mint on an HP Elitebook 8570w (everybody online seemed to recommend it over upgrading in-place like a normal operating system), and wanted to play games. Steam installed fine, but Mudrunner had to be configured to use Proton. Fair enough, but it crashed on startup. Okay, I’ll try an older version. Still crashes no matter what version I try (and I was on shitty vacation WiFi so downloading was extra slow mind you). Okay, I’ll try some random USE_WINE3D flag I found on the internet. No longer crashes, but the performance is piss slow. “Oh right”, I remembered, “I have to select the proprietary Nvidia drivers”. Fortunately Mint has a setting to easily select them, unfortunately after installing them the game crashes no matter what I do. Give up and go back to open source with 5fps. Try again later, and realize that apparently Mint installed the wrong Nvidia drivers, and I have to manually download them and install via the command line. Some more tweaking Proton versions and flags, and the game is finally running at a solid 20fps.
Compare that to my brother I was playing with. Identical 8570w laptop, identical Quadro K1000m CPU, identical Mudrunner game. The game worked out of the box and ran faster on his computer than it ever did on mine. I don’t remember the exact FPS but it was at least 30, probably closer to 45.
And before someone comments on “Nvidia”, I thought one of the benefits of Linux was supposed to be the ability to run on anything. Even the cheap laptop I got in 2017 because it was $250 but came with a 1080p screen and a graphics card. Paying more for the “correct” hardware would defeat the entire point of saving money with an open source operating system.
hum, going to the website seems unintuitive, I was wondering why I cannot find steam in the app store. Turns out Windows is just not user-friendly.
User behaviors are formed by experience, most people starts with windows, and of course know to use device manager etc to troubleshoot and think it is intuitive.
When moving to a new OS there will of course be rough times. I was also utterly confused when I moved from Linux to Windows many years ago, but it took me couple months to a year to get used to it.
Now I have moved back to linux with many years on Windows experience, and I also struggle to port all my setup from Windows back to linux.
Just because things happen one way on one OS, doesn’t mean other ways are “not user friendly”.
Installing games on steam and playing them sounds like what you do on Linux 99% of the time too
Nah, you spend more time configuring than actually playing.
You even have to configure and emulate Windows, so you can configure your game on there.
I had to emulate windows once and it was for pyinstaller, not even a game. I doubt you have any experience at all
It is absolutely that easy to use Steam for most games on GNU/Linux now.
In fact, even easier, because you can use the software center to get Steam, skipping the whole going to their website part.
Not quite, running 75% of games requires turning on Proton, and while it’s incredible they can run at all, many have minor issues and/or require setup to work well. Plus dealing with graphics card drivers that are extremely laggy by default unless you find and install the correct version of the proprietary ones.
That’s exclusively an NVidia problem. Because their cards are locked down.
If you have an AMD or Intel card, or even use a distro that deals with the NVidia drivers, you’ll have no issues.
While some games have minor issues, most aren’t deal breaking and some even work better than Windows. Especially impressive because they’re Windows executables running on a foreign OS through a compatibility layer.
You can do all that without ever opening a single commandline.
You can’t even do that to install software on the majority of Linux.
Yeah! Just use a browser. Make sure to click the right download button (not the 50 ads disguised as download buttons) to download an executable (just the installer). Then, run the installer and click “next” a bunch of times. Why would anyone want anything different?
I’d still prefer it to the terminal. I get to choose installation locations and it’s easier to configure.
Choosing an install location is totally a Windows only thing. Every other OS has a notion of where binaries and libraries of applications are supposed to reside, except for Windows. This is why you can’t invoke anything manually installed from cmd just by typing the name of the application and hitting tab for filename completion. You HAVE TO cd to where the file physically resides, THEN type the name of the binary. Couldn’t be stupider if you ask me.
Majority by number of distros, or only including desktop Linux distros? Because yeah, if you’re including server distros, that’s true, and if you count it by the number of distros, that’s true, but most people use one of a handful of distros on their desktop. Both gnome and KDE have software centers which you can use to install stuff without the command line.
Linux: You can mostly stick to the GUI to install software, touch the terminal for obscure/command line applications and install GPU drivers and you have a functioning system
Windows: Forced to go into regedit and services.msc to fix high resource usage on a fresh install, debloat scripts to remove bloat on Windows and need to update system, scower the internet for drivers and all the software you need
I can see why I got fed up very fast trying to use Windows 11 in QEMU tbh…never trying that shitshow again…
Edit the only packages I had to install through Bash are: Neofetch, Htop, OpenSeeFace, Brave Browser, Wine, Nvidia drivers and ProtonVPN. Linux is very user friendly imo
Use Winget or Chocolatey. If you use an app that’s not packaged yet, it’s easy to package it yourself.
7 packages from the command line isn’t that many, but you’re failing to account for the fact that to most Windows users, the amount they’ll realistically install is 0, both because they don’t know how to use the command line and because they don’t know what to install. See also: https://xkcd.com/2501/
OP never watched the LTT Linux video
Edit: for people that also haven’t watched it: Linus tried to use Pop-OS for gaming. When he tried to install Steam it uninstalled his desktop-environment leaving him with only a terminal.
Linus is dunning-kruger crystallized and refined. He routinely talks authoritatively about subjects he knows little about. His qubit analogy is particularly wrong and annoying, and he doesn’t stop bringing it up.
Either way, more idiot filters have been installed in front of that and you’ll have to do way more work (likely learning something in the process) to fuck your system up like that.
it did warn him to be fair. he had to type out “yes, do as i say”, which is a HUGE red flag. even to me, a farely casual windows user.
It was hidden in a massive wall of text. Ain’t nobody got time for that
Man was installing Steam why does it even want to remove his desktop environment to begin with.
He specifically did it in the terminal, which is aimed for power user (unfortunately most guides tell people to use the terminal at this point, but this is starting to change), and typed the text with the warning above saying essential component will be removed, with the components clearly listed, and he read it.
When he did the install on store, which is meant for regular user, the installer did stop him and tell him essential part will be removed, and refuse to go through.
Installer problem will happen, most installer on windows run as admin, and can also break stuff if they want to.
So please pardon me, but I honestly don’t see how much more user friendly this can be, maybe you have some ideas? The only option I can think of is to not give anyone the opportunity to remove desktop environment, but that is like android won’t let you remove any launcher app.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Ain’t nobody got time for that
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
A particular version of the steam.deb file got pushed to the Ubuntu repository that had some bugged prerequisites. If it didn’t recognize the exact DE you were using, it would deem it incompatible and try to remove it. This wasn’t a problem for a lot of more popular distros running more popular DEs, but it caught Pop!_OS and their goofy fork of Gnome.
Prior to That Video, this issue had been found, reported and fixed. But it just so happens that bugged version was what was in the apt cache at the time the install image Linus used was made.
Further, Pop!_OS didn’t ever suggest Linus do a system update after a fresh install, nor did it update the apt cache when launching the Pop!_Shop, so that out of date apt cache was used.
Further, instead of googling an error message he was given and trying to solve the problem, the child that walks like a CEO threw a tantrum about “you have to use the terminal” looked up the command to install Linux via apt, also failed to do an update first (which you typically do; most guides about installing something tell you do an apt update && apt upgrade first) and he just plowed right through to a borked install.
Just watched that portion. When he scrolls down to “yes do as I say” you can literally see two lines above it stating it will remove desktop environment.
Outputs exist for a reason, folks.
And that is why Linux isn’t as widely distributed as Windows. Linux is great, if you know what you are doing. But most of the world doesn’t have the time needed to learn Linux well enough to avoid major fuck-ups like this.
Linux gives you a wall of text when all the user did (at least what they thought they did) is say install this program. The system ask “Are you sure?” And the user is like “Yes, just do it!” I can’t imagine anything on Windows doing that lol.
I like Linux and I think it’s great, but I can certainly understand why the majority of people are wary of it.
To play devils advocate, I’d say that the bigger issue is that Linus ended up in the terminal to start with, when he had no idea what he was doing in there.
If Linux is to hit the masses, then a beginner friendly distro should have the convention to install apps be by GUI instead of TUI, and guides should be updated to reflect this. That GUI-based installer should see that the “Yes, do as I say” prompt was triggered and in a clear and concise way, inform the user that important packages will be removed if they continue and they should not.
Effectively just having a much better interface for the user is what I’m saying.
Effectively just having a much better interface for the user is what I’m saying.
It amazes me the amount of grognards that despise any interface that isn’t a command line terminal. “I can do everything on the terminal!” - True, but that’s because the UI sucks and lacks proper buttons, widgets and whatnot. That no linux distro comes with a “builtin” icon (available after an installation) or shortcut to “update all programs” or “update only security packages”, or even an easy solution to auto update everything on the background, without having to type the command, really shows how little thought is given to user experience. All solutions recquiring a terminal automatically fail in regards to bringing people to linux.
a beginner friendly distro should have the convention to install apps be by GUI instead of TUI, and guides should be updated to reflect this
It is a lot harder (and less helpful) in a written guide to tell someone to press a button in menu such-and-such; telling someone to open the terminal and copy paste a command is easier.
In addition (though I do not know if it applies so much to gui package managers) GUI apps also have the tendency to not have a stable interface, so a blender 2 tutorial will often not be useful for someone using blender 3, because the interface will have changed and buttons that were once in one place now are somewhere else or no longer exist. CLI programs for some reason are a lot more backwards compatible in my experience.
I think GUI apps should ideally be designed to be usable without the user knowing where something is beforehand (though that is not always possible, like in complex software handling a lot of stuff a new user may not be familiar with, when they only want to achieve a certain specific goal), making mentioning how the UI works almost superfluous in those cases.
Counterpoint: Installing widely used software and following common instructions to do so should not ever put you one confirmation away from destroying your desktop environment, no matter how explicit that confirmation is.
Counterpoint: Destroying my desktop environment is exactly the thing I want to do. For real, this is one of the first things I do on the regular. One safety-net for noobs is exactly enough, any more and it will become frustrating to power users.
I just accidentally deleted my crontab about an hour ago because r is right next to e.
Fortunately my computer backs itself up often so I could just grab the old crontab but it was annoying and would have been problematic if I didn’t.
I also had to recover my computer a few months back because someone whoopsied the default apt repositories for Ubuntu x64 arch and pushed the x86 software there instead.
The problem was using some esoteric loonix distro that’s not Ubuntu or mint. Smh
It’s a problem with APT not updating it’s packages/programs/version list before installing a software.
He should do “sudo apt update”, before “sudo apt install steam”, but of course it’s apt problem for not doing it automatically. Someone who uses Linux for longer would install it from Flatpak app store or something, but it’s clearly not simple “wrong distro, bro”.
I suspect the actual problem was that Steam’s Linux implementation is, uh… A little rough around the edges.
As in, there was at one point an error where the launcher could delete your entire hard drive.
The fact there are so many distros and only a handful are “the good ones” (which changes with every user you ask) is one of the major reasons Linux is is not user friendly at all.
I did a similar thing on linux mint while trying to get my audio system working how I wanted. Luckily it comes with terminal-accessible rollback by default via timeshift and I was able to revert the mistake.
Linux’s modularity and customizability vectors for complications which Windows lacks, which is both an advantage and an issue. I prefer having it over not, though.
