What else besides running services can system.d do?
bootload, manage devices, manage the network interface, manage accounts, log in, provide a host for temp files, schedule stuff, log events
All of this is background stuff to me so I don’t care
(n.b.: systemd also suffers from a linux kernel vs linux situation. systemd has a component named systemd that only does services stuff)
You forgot manage containers, manage system timers, manage network interfaces (in some cases)…
manage system timers, manage network interfaces
I said “manage the network interface” and “schedule stuff”
manage containers
That requires podman or some other program, so that’s like saying shell does container management
DNS resolution, clock synchronization, there’s something about keyboard configuration but it stopped to make me problems for no reason so I don’t know what exactly…
Oh, and IPC so that Gnome can not be done until other inits won’t run!
But there are a lot of other modules.
TL;DR init system, services, sockets, slices, logs, boots, VM’s, containers… and that’s fantastic, for monolithic systems. journalctl go brrrr
Strap in, folks. Old timer with a gavel to slam.
When systemd is unfolded in full, people are sort of apt when they jokingly say “-Linux, or what I’d like to call gnu/systemd/Linux”. Some scream at the top of their lungs, yearning back to rc.0 days, “when everything was much simpler”… this is where the gavel comes down. There are so many improvements they are hard to list and if you asked me if I could go back, only with modern software, I would say nay… and here’s why:
Running services is a whole mess more than just running background apps, and it’s intrinsically intertwined with what is known as the init system - no matter what some people may think. Init is the process of initializing (or bootstrapping) an operating system, and services are background services, but both are about managing the processes within the Linux stack - or the thread. Some say that systemd is doing more than it should, but systemd is not “crossing streams” when both init processes and services need to be managed in concert depending upon the way a system inits - because there’s more than one way to init.
systemd manages init through scopes, slices and services, which combined create the hierarchy of processes used to bootstrap a system, get things up and running, with their relative permissions, in a given state, to facilitate a running and functioning system. Socket units handle socket files or destinations, and timer units handle event driven processes.
It all comes together into a dependency chain that defines your running system, which is testable and manageable from a set of tools. systemctl is used to manage a running system, and I think it does a great job of it. Imagine fail testing a bunch of non-standardised, random rc bash script files that aren’t distro agnostic, along with whatever daemon runner you were using. It was a mess, and systemd sought to fix that - which imho it has. We view a booted Linux system and it’s process tree much differently through the systemd lens, which gives us a newfound focus that helps us better manage a running system.
Also, logs are binary now… you’re all so spoiled and you don’t even know it. Do you remember 20GB txt files you absolutely had to open? Pepperidge farm remembers. Which brings us journalctl, which is just so good. It’s the swizz army knife of Linux logs. You can point it at anything. Specify -k for dmesg, a service using --unit, point to a binary in /usr/bin, select previous boot with -b -1, -f for follow, -e take me to the end of a log. If you haven’t learned how to use this tool, you are running blind. It whips every dang logging system out there. Going from systemd to windows events feels like going from a soft mattress to the inside of an iron maiden.
systemd-boot is blazing fast. Don’t get me wrong, Grub2 is still fantastic as well (Apple seems to think so at least), but considering ease of us - as I often do - I’m inclined to prefer systemd-boot because of bootctl, because like journalctl, it’s a wonderful piece of kit for managing, analyzing and failtesting boot images, provides UEFI functionality and being a sort of one-stop shop for the boot process.
Now we we’re seeing systemd managing VM’s (machinectl) and containers (containerctl), and honestly I’m all for it. Make my life easier. Please. Standardise that mess. And since it is standard, everyone supplies systemd units and because of the nature of systemd and it’s designs, it’s all fail-safed to hell and back. This is good. We want this. At least on the desktop, workstation, even some servers. For containers, embedded, not so much, as they aren’t monolithic systems. That being said, NixOS has proven that systemd isn’t a barrier to entry for new system paradigms either, so I feel those fears were unfounded.
You get the theme here. Systemd is a system management suite, and not just a service runner or init system. It seems to grow and grow out of proportion, but at the end of the day, it’s about getting the system(s) and software up and running, as well as managing those processes and figuring out where problems lie. That’s what systemd does. It’s become part and parcel of a fully monolithic Linux stack, and in my opinion it’s a great project that makes our lives much easier.
To me systemd is zen. It’s the cup of tea Linux always needed, and I’m not ashamed to say so.
@taanegl @DmMacniel omg i was so prepared to hear a anti-lennart-pottering rant about sysv init scripts
thanks for what instead turned out to be a very thoughtful and educational text which i will now send to all these sysv ppl
Having to occasionally go back to OpenRC or Upstart systems is jarring. Systemd just does so much and does it so much better. Poettering seems like a bit of a chode but he genuinely made an incredible project. I also think that when people say systemd isn’t Unix-like, they forget that systemd isn’t monolithic and it’s possible to use some components of it but not others. The core is all based on a standardized way to start and manage processes and services, be it for boot or usage.
Hi am noob why systemd bad? I use Debian, is fucked?
Honestly I’ve been hearing about this for a while now but never bothered to check, I’m too lazy for that.
I believe partly because it takes over so many responsibilities that it becomes a requirement for things that don’t need to require it. Plus it diverged from the Linux principle of do only one thing.
Also, afair, it was buggy for a while.
FYI: It’s called Unix principle, not Linux
I highly recommend you check out this video
SystemD is not really bad. Like 90% distros use it, and for good reasons. Some people just pointlessly hate it on it, same way some people like to hate on Wayland too.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
I highly recommend you check out this video
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It’s not inherently bad, it “fails” the Unix Philosophy of “Do one thing and do it well” but since Linux’s kernel is:
- Unix-like, not Unix
- Fails this philosophy, as it does more than one thing but does all of it pretty well
- systemd is just a bundle of tools that do one thing and do it well under one package, like Linux’s kernel
It used to be a mess, but that’s solved. The biggest reason to avoid systemd is mainly user preference, not anything malicious. 90% of current distros use systemd as its easier for the maintainers and package programmers to build for the general than each package and each distro having their own methods of how to do an init system and other tasks.
How Debian and Arch and Gentoo and Slackware and other big distros worked was different, and the maintainers of those packages had to know “Debian’s way” and not a general way that most places accept. Systemd actually solved the Too Many Standards! issue.
I’ve never really seen a big argument against systemd, but maybe I’ve just not heard it.
It also didn’t help that Poettering isn’t particularly popular on a personal level. I think there would have been a lot less drama if he had better people skills.
Yeah, but to be honest, I would have terrible “people skills” too if people sent me death threats over writing a free software.
back when you had an init system and you got it just the way you wanted it, you would be pissed that you had to move to systemd
now its there when you install and it is stable so it isn’t a big deal. But old beards hate change.
It used to be a mess, but that’s solved.
Do you mean the past tense of the verb solve or the systemd service that solves mathematical equations? Because solveds code is still a mess. It used to too, but it still is.
The principle of “do one thing and do it well” still applies to SystemD as it builds into many different applications which each do one thing only. The problem is that you require most of them to have a fully functioning unit system which makes it function more like 1 big product rather than many smaller ones as it actually is.
A lot of the hate I feel started with Pottering which extended to SystemD. And while it certainly had downsides it had less than the other i it Systems which is also why It has become the new norm.
There is a fork of Debian without SystemD. https://www.devuan.org/
Poettering works for MS now? That’s the best news I’ve heard in a long time.
This sounds a bit ridiculous. If Linus started working at MS I wonder if people would suddenly think Linux was a MS project and start hating on it.
people keep saying this, but what is their extinguish plan? how could they realistically extinguish linux? it’s not a company they can buy, or even a single thing they can ruin.
If you know the history of Linux, plenty of people almost did. Microsoft has especially tried. Usually through software patents, FUD, and suing the shit out of everybody. If everyone had to rip SystemD out of their systems tomorrow, would it kill Linux? Nah, probably not. But it would be enough to keep those with large pockets from ever picking it over Microsoft’s offerings.
They’ve effectively kept Linux out of their domain for a very long time now.
To me systemd is fine, I am not really emotional at init systems. But on the other hand Linux is about choice and systemd kills that in some way because it does so much more than just starting services. GNOME is unusable without systemd, which makes it a no choice if you go into another rabbit hole. It’s kinda weird how deeply systemd is integrated in Linux these days. What I really dislike is that the log is in binary format by default which makes it necessary to deal with another tool to read logs. But well software changes, so do tools. But honestly the devs acted like dick heads sometimes, so I think most of the antipathy comes from their behavior and well yes MS now kinda pushing systemd because poettering works for them. I have fear that MS forces the systemd devs to implement things you cannot simply opt out of because it is so tightly integrated. Maybe copilot for writing systemd unit files would be nice though :P
well yes MS now kinda pushing systemd because poettering works for them. I have fear that MS forces the systemd devs to implement things you cannot simply opt out of because it is so tightly integrated.
How has MS pushed systemd?
I have fear that MS forces the systemd devs to implement things you cannot simply opt out of because it is so tightly integrated.
What the hell? Code isn’t unpatchable, and neither is Microsoft the super evil villain trying to ruin the lives of Linux users that childishly.
You know, it’s funny. I don’t actually have much of a strong opinion on The Unix Way or Lennart Poettering, and I’m not super fond of Red Hat, but it’s not like I’m going to avoid everything they’re involved in the maintenance of and still use Linux.
I do like alternatives though, so I’ve been trying out OpenRC recently, and I gotta say I really like it. Of course there’s a little bit of a learning curve, but honestly it’s just simple and fast and stays out of the way, and it’s nice to just open logs in any text editor I like. Systemd can do all kinds of crazy things, and if you need any of them then there’s no reason not to use it, but I don’t, and it’s just kinda pleasant to have something nice and straightforward that I actually kinda understand instead.
