This blog post by Ploum, who was part of the original XMPP efforts long ago, describes how Google killed one great federated service, which shows why the Fediverse must not give Meta the chance
Embrace, extend, extinguish.
An excellent read. My synopsis is that if any big corporations joined the Fediverse they would fracture it, and that no matter what Meta, Reddit, Google, etc. would never want to see a decentralized platform succeed.
Pretty much the Fediverse needs to never let a big company tie into it. Our group needs to work at growing but at a sustainable rate.
@MyMulligan @jherazob I disagree.
I think the key thing is to just make sure that you don’t use non #FOSS clients. #GoogleTalk started as a client for #XMPP, people migrated to it, and then #Google dropped support for #XMPP. If so many people didn’t use #GoogleTalk, the #XMPP network would have remained unimpeded.
Exactly! Let them join…and be ignored.
But how do we ignore them? Can you block an entire instance?
Yes. A lot of that is going on with instances being blocked en masse for allowing too many spam/bot accounts without any corresponding high quality activity coming from users registered with that instance. It’s very much in flux right now, with instance administrators trying to figure out which metrics to use and what lists to trust, but I imagine a more mature/robust process will be used by most serious instances soon enough.
The only official way is for the admin of your instance to defederate from the instance you want blocked, but that affects every registered user on your instance, even if they’re against the action.
I just released a user script that lets you block instances yourself on the client-side as a regular user - basically just removes post and comments from the HTML if they match your block list.
At this point it wouldn’t matter, all they need to do is to mess with the protocol and it’d achieve the same thing, Meta and everything in it’s sphere would “work well”, but connecting with true ActivityPub servers would work just glitchy enough to annoy their users and point the fingers towards our side, just like it happened with XMPP
what the heck makes you think that all the #Fediverse users are just gonna leave for #Meta because federation with it is “annoying”? lol
We can’t effectively block corporate injections, unfortunately. The admins of large hub instances are just of the opinion that bigger is better, and that more is more. They’ve been excited by the prospect of, I don’t know, legitimacy or something, for a while now.
The result is going to be the network… not fracturing, per-se, but significantly restructuring itself. Big instances will get sucked into Big Social’s halo, and be like the suburbs to Meta’s or Tumblr’s metropolitan centres. Smaller instances will end up as the exurbs. Content will flow quickly between metro and suburban spaces, and trickle across suburban spaces between the metro and exurban spaces. And which Fedivesre site you choose to use will end up mattering even more than it does now.
Right now, there’s speculative reason to believe that Meta’s offering up incentives to big instance admins. Those incentives will ultimately result in Meta owning them by proxy. They’ll be client kingdoms, to mix metaphors, working on Meta’s behalf, but getting relatively little in return for it.
I think Reddit moderators probably have a good idea about how they’ll ultimately end up feeling.
The thing is that Meta and Reddit are masters of social manipulation through their algorithms. They know what low common denominators get the most engagement. I blame FB for a big number of echo Chambers and that just fed people their own negativity right back, made them spiral into a bad place mentally.
If they have any ability to post to the Fediverse or to track things they’ll do it all over again.
It’s the halcyon days of the Fediverse. Negativity on my feed is nonexistent. There’s discussion. There’s respect for differences. I know things will change with time but it’s important that the big instances never work as proxies for big tech. It’s important that big tech doesn’t get a seat at the table. Voices should remain individual and not some mouthpiece to an industry that wants centralized control.
“Negativity on my feed is nonexistent.”
Absolute first thing I noticed when I came in to test this as a Reddit alternative. It’s so refreshing, and the discourse is so civil.
If there’s a way we can keep this quality, it’d be amazing. I often wondered when I’m on Reddit or twitter how much of the awful negativity is really people’s or bots/algos prodding them into acting this way.
If the current big players best bets are to weasel in on the large instances, are there any simple changes that could be done to prevent their take over or influence? Things that aren’t too heavy handed?
If they have any ability to post to the Fediverse or to track things they’ll do it all over again.
They have that ability, and always will have. They can create as many accounts as they like on as many instances as they like, or run as many instances as they like themselves, use incentivized individuals, or employees, or bots, or any combination of all of the above. No one can stop them, maybe even no one can spot them.
The only thing which is holding them back right now is lemmy/kbin still being too insignificant. If the network continues to grow, more and more big corps will see it as a market and an opportunity, and they will have plenty of ways to interact with it.
Exactly right. Human greed doesn’t only come from money.
- “It will be free advertisement and will help the project grow!”
- “Look how many people are using my server. MY server. I’m popular now!”
- And the more obvious, “If I make my server big enough, maybe I can cash out by being bought by this big company!”
In the end and from whatever the source, that bus always ends up in the same place once they convince themselves to get on it.
@Kichae
You should read this ⬇️
https://alaskan.social/@seachanger/110594353082289234
I don’t think Google cares if the Fediverse succeeds or not. All they care about is that it can be indexed and people will be able to show Google ads on their instances.
Google doesn’t have a Reddit equivalent or even any other social network competitor (anymore; they killed them all). They explicitly chose to exit that entire concept of products.
The only reason XMPP mattered to Google at the time was they were trying to compete with Apple for messaging on mobile devices. XMPP meant that Android devices using Google Hangouts/Chat/Gmail could chat with users on other platforms/services while Apple’s chat app could only do SMS.
I guess what I’m saying is that Google is mostly irrelevant from the perspective of the Fediverse other than the fact that it can index and maybe give priority to discussions of certain products/topics like it does with Reddit currently.
The threat right now is from Meta, that is eyeing the fediverse, not Google.
For anyone paying attention, I’m going to sound like a broken record here, but it bears repeating: business models that treat the user as the product–to be sold, not catered to–is a cancer on the internet.
This ought to be a wakeup call in 2023. If you aren’t the paying customer/supporter, you are less than dirt on the underside of the boot of the big tech firms. You are cattle, in a factory farm, to be treated like shit, only to be slaughtered for profit at the next opportunity.
Attitude’s like “I don’t care about ads” and “my data is worthless to me, so why not trade it in” all mask the more fundamental problem that is that you are being held in a cage full of shit, when in reality you could be roaming free in a pasture.
Given growth, it’s pretty much inevitable that certain instances will need funding to survive.
Besides donation drives like Wikipedia, I can definitely see a world where small governments get involved.
Places like Estonia, Israel and Iceland that want to cheaply promote their tech industries and cultural content. Things these countries are doing in centralized spaces like Facebook - but now with more control.
My synopsis is that if any big corporations joined the Fediverse they would fracture it.
I’m not so sure. Facebook has an onion version that runs on the tor network. Big tech dominates the clear web but there’s plenty of room for everyone else.
Ultimately you have user types. In a few more months, LemmyVerse could have a couple of million active users.
I’d bet the vast majority would scoff at a fediverse version of Facebook. It’s just a different crowd - not unlike the tor network where Facebook (probably, maybe?) exists in nmae only.
Really good read. I was not aware of the history in such details, but the argument is very compelling.
this is why the powers that be must never be allowed to join the fediverse: they’ll destroy it
great article, if you’re here scrolling through the comments I urge you to stop and actually read the article, it’s worth your time I promise
the powers that be must never be allowed to join the fediverse
How are they not allowed? How is it checked, how prevented?
As I see it, they can freely use the code, freely set up instances, freely create user accounts on their own or other instances, with ‘independent’ users, employees or bots.
The only thing stopping them is the current fediverse’s insignificance. We’re just not tasty enough, yet. But if we become, how could we disallow them from joining?
how could we disallow them from joining?
easy, identify them, never allow them to federate, block them in your firewall. Their instances won’t be anonymous
Ok, but you can only do that if they already joined the fediverse. I replied to “the powers that be must never be allowed to join the fediverse”. It’s also questionable if everyone will block them.
Excellent article and it’s of course a very serious concern regarding Meta’s Project 92.
I want to use this thread to share one other concern that I’ve seen coming up constantly on Mastodon: overzealous instance admins that take things personally.
“You said X about me, I’ll block your whole instance”.
“I don’t like a particular nuanced view that instance staff holds, #Fediblock now”.
“Users of X instance reported me. I’ll block the whole instance”.
A few of these things happened in the last couple of days. We can’t have instance admins defederating because of trivial petty stuff. The only thing this does is drive users to larger instances, among which there might be corporate interests.
