For context this is an Andrew tate meatrider on twitter
I think the problem here is making rape sound like an opportunist crime: like you left a wallet stuffed full of cash at a bar and someone took it while the owner was getting a drink.
"Well, you were dressed showing too much skin, and you didn’t take your knight-in-shining-armour, so what do you expect?
If a person don’t see the problem with this view, then there a significant lack of insight. But then that is probably Tates’ target audience.
If you wander past the danger signs, and into the crocodile pen, and get bitten by crocodiles, then its your fault.
Thankfully, human males aren’t purpose-built carnivorous reptiles with a hunger for mammals, no capacity for understanding right and wrong, and a lowercase brain that hasn’t evolved in 250 mn years.
Well, there’s also a lot of “extreme” examples. It’s always the super slutty, naive woman or the super innocent, risk-free woman. Nothing in between.
There are definitely scenarios, where a reasonable person would have to say “this action is very risk prone”. And I personally think it’s hypocritical to completely separate rape from any other crime. You can’t argue, that in any other crime there’s a certain responsibility put on the victim (your insurance won’t pay, if you leave the car keys in), but rape, and only rape, dissolves the victim from any sort of responsibility for bringing themselves in a situation where this was very likely.
I think, this is rather a case of “progressives” (in the broadest sense) are afraid that giving any argumentative ground to the “enemy” will immediately lead to a win for the other side, in that the rapist would be somehow less guilty. I know, where this is coming from, but it’s still hypocritical and doesn’t really help in the long run.
for bringing themselves in a situation where this was very likely
The kinds of scenario you are hinting at is very rare.
What you’re saying, in effect, is that women should not go out and get drunk. Which is ridiculous. I’ve probably been out and got drunk over 5,000 times. My lifetime risk of getting raped is around 1 in 4. And you’re telling me that the only way I can reasonably expect not to get blamed for my own rape is spend those many thousands of nights at home alone instead?
Or are youu saying that I should be getting walked home thousands and thousands of times by a man who is 10x more likely to rape me than the stranger you’re imagining /able to distance yourself from.
Or are you saying that unless we’re all teetotal virgins, you’re going to sit on the fucking fence.
You know who is loving your work? The rapists who are hearing you tell them they’re normal. Because the only people who think that all men are rapists are rapists.
STFU
See, I never specified the situation. You just assumed that. I deliberately stayed vague, but you jumped to the conclusion that I meant your specific circumstances.
There is something to be said for minimizing the risk of a crime being committed against you, but at absolutely no point should you blame the victim of a crime. I may have left my keys in the car, but the guy who stole it is the guy who stole it. Sure, if I’d remembered my keys, he probably wouldn’t have stolen it, but only one of us is to blame for a crime taking place, and it isn’t the one that didn’t commit a crime.
And those two things don’t contradict each other.
A criminal can be a criminal and a victim can be at partial responsibility for creating that situation. This is pretty much uncontroversial for every crime, unless you somehow involve rape. Seriously, replace rape with any other crime, do you think all those people would scream around like they currently do? I doubt it. And that’s hypocrisy.
The insurance company thing is a bad example, because it’s an example of a for profit company maximizing their profits at the expense of the consumer rather than any kind of moral or ethical statement.
I, for one, do not think leaving your keys in the car excuses car theft.
Just because your back is turned does not mandate me to shoot you, and turning your back on me does not mean that you are complicit in being shot. The exploiting party always, always, needs to have the entirety of blame placed on them.
Risk mitigation is wise and situational awareness is good, but a lack of either of these does not excuse exploitation.
Where exactly did I even suggest that this would excuse rape?
You’re doing what I wrote: assuming that anything but the extreme position is a justification of rape.
It’s always the super slutty, naive woman or the super innocent, risk-free woman. Nothing in between.
Wut
And I personally think it’s hypocritical to completely separate rape from any other crime. You can’t argue, that in any other crime there’s a certain responsibility put on the victim (your insurance won’t pay, if you leave the car keys in), but rape, and only rape, dissolves the victim from any sort of responsibility for bringing themselves in a situation where this was very likely.
“well I know your husband was murdered but he’s the one who decided to be a bank teller during an armed robbery”
You realize how much of an idiot you are, right? Don’t rape people. It isn’t hard and it isn’t the victim’s fault. At all. A woman should be able to walk down the street naked at 2 am and not have to worry about your disgusting ass touching her.
Again, (seriously, why is that so hard?) you’re taking an extreme example and act like that’s the norm and act like I’m pro rape.
I described a problematic argumentation, and you used this exact structure to “refute” me.
The vast majority of sexual assault victims know their attacker. What you are saying is that knowing a man is, for a women, inherently high risk and any time we are alone with a man we are putting ourselves in danger and therefore at fault. Are you saying that all men are rapists and we need segregation?
Again, you’re taking the extreme stance. Exactly what I said in the very first sentence.
I didn’t say “every and in all cases”, but “there are some”. You chose to ignore that.
Such line of thinking has the potential to shift the public opinion and then final judgement in favor of the rapist, believe me it does. I have seen it happen countless times in Turkey. So I would strongly suggest staying as far away as possible from that which can really normalize (even if slightly so) rape in certain kinds of scenarios. And you dont wanna live in that shit hole.
And for the victim who has gone through a traumatic experience, it is like kicking her while she is on the ground. She is probably already going through a lot of regrets and you are there shouting “YEA YOU BETTER FEEL SORRY FOR WHAT YOU DID”
I mean, I think you would also agree that no matter what the location is or how the victim dresses, the amount of punishment should be very heavy so as to be a deterrent. So what is even the point of bringing someone’s life choices to a matter of legal debate. Leave it to that person to evaluate it is not your job or ours
What you described is exactly the problem I see. The fear of the entire argument flopping to the other extreme.
But let’s be honest here: ignoring the truth because you can’t handle the truth (or are afraid of not being able to handle it) is wrong. It’s hypocrisy. And I’m actually relatively sure that you alienate a lot of people in the middle of the extremes because they can see the willful ignorance behind the argument. That means, you’re losing supporters.
Just look at how vile I’m being attacked here. There’s not even a hint of trying to understand my point. Just “not my line, must be the enemy”. That’s bonkers and not helpful.
You’re looking at the problem in a “spherical rape victim in a vacuum” sort of way. There is a whole bunch of context that doesn’t fit into your hypothetical.
Sexual victimization is not just another crime. Most sexual assaults are carried out by partners, spouses, and relatives. So the victim has a complicated mix of shame and conflict of interest. Not to mention that a raped women is often viewed as “damaged goods”, and a raped man as a sissy, so social status is at risk too.
Society re-victimizes sexual assault survivors and attitudes of victim shaming contribute to this. What victim shaming doesn’t do is prevent people from being sexually assaulted. We know this because if victim shaming could reduce sexual assault, rape would be rare.
“Yes the rapist is at fault, but also women need to be blamed for having the audacity to walk alone at night. Some of us men just can’t help ourselves, and women need to change their behavior of not walking around without a male babysitter instead of men changing their behavior by not raping. She should be held accountable because of this, but not punished. “
So how exactly does the author propose they hold this accountability…? Just a little bit of rape?
Also I love how for his 2nd point he literally just says “No no no, this was taken out of context. He actually meant to say [states literally verbatim what he said]” lol
I think he meant for 2 that he made separate statements and someone somehow spliced them together with a “but” without making it sound off.
not walking around without a male babysitter
The ‘male babysitter’ is far more likely to do the raping than some hypothetical stranger. Just one of the reasons this braindead advice is so fucking irritating. And, of course, it comes from exactly those people (usually but not always men) who will be making excuses for the rapist when following their advice gets people raped.
I assume it’s just accountability for stupidity, or some such nonsense. There are situations in which victims of various crimes can be accused of making poor decisions that put them at risk. That doesn’t make his argument right, of course, as they’re never at fault and should never be blamed. However, this entire argument ignores the realities of how/where/by whom rape is most often committed.
I like to be free to walk where I want, and I’m a woman. You’re saying (or rather, he is. I know y’all are better than this) that because a small percentage of women get raped in alleys every night, no women should be allowed to walk in alleys any night. How about we switch, and no men are allowed out at night at all? Because a small percentage of men commit rape each night, in all kinds of places.
Oh wait, a majority of rapists rape indoors, and rape the women they know well. Oh, and there’s a large overlap in the Venn diagram circles of “police” and “rapists.” And a larger overlap between “authorities” and “rapists who get away with it.” Shit, this problem is bigger than just telling people where to walk at night…
The problem is massive. Women get raped in parking lots. Women get raped on the subway. Women get raped by doctors. Women get raped in stairwells. Wherever women exist, we get raped.
Yeah, we all take precautions, but it’s impossible to totally protect ourselves from being raped, and moreover we shouldn’t need to protect ourselves. We ought to be able to live our lives openly with an expectation of safety.
His phrasing is really poor, and he shouldn’t be talking about these two concepts together. He’s intentionally being controversial and causing outrage because it keeps him relevant and causes people to engage with him, which is his ultimate objective.
Of course you can walk wherever you want, but that doesn’t make it wise. I’m a 6’ tall, 200 lb male, ex-soldier, with fighting experience, who carries a 3" lock-blade pocketknife everywhere, and I still wouldn’t walk through a dark alley on the bad side of town. It’s unwise. Would I prefer to be able to go anywhere I want without unnecessary risks? Of course. Is that the reality I live in? Not even close.
“I’m not a rapist, but…” sounds like you are about to say an excuse as to why you are a rapist
this is stupid, you cant hold her accountable for a rape even if she was walking naked. It is like saying everyone involved in a car accident should be held accountable even if they did not do anything they got in a car knowing that car accidents are very common.
you can maybe try to criticise for bad decisions on practical grounds but that is a whole other separate thing. And the only thing this will lead to finally is asking someone to forgo some of their rights if they dont want to get raped. very problematic. And then again if you are not a sorry little piece of shit, you should not do that to someone who has just gone through such a traumatic experience. swallowing down your self righteousness and giving unconditional support will likely work better.