The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim
Talk of rape began circulating almost before the massacres themselves were over. Much of it came from what Patten would later call “non-professionals” who supplied “inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretations” of what they found, creating an instant but flawed narrative about what had taken place.
Meanwhile, the political establishment has opened a fresh battle with the UN over what the Patten report didn’t say: that sexual violence was beyond reasonable doubt, systematic, widespread and ordered and perpetrated by Hamas. Israeli advocates for the female survivors are now warning that the country’s refusal to co-operate with a full and legal investigation, which the carefully worded report was not, threatens the prospect of ever finding out the full truth about the sexual violence of October 7 and delivering justice for its victims.
It was not a legal investigation, Patten explained, as Israel had not allowed one: that mandate could only be fulfilled by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which Israel has refused to work with since its inception. She hoped that would change.
Patten made it clear there was sufficient evidence of acts of sexual violence to merit full and proper investigation and expressed her shock at the brutality of the violence. The report also confirmed Israeli authorities were unable to provide much of the evidence that political leaders had insisted existed. In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.
Israel has been anally raping Palestinians with electric rods and electrocuting them to death.
Hey this comment is getting reported for misinformation. Can you link please provide a source for this information?
A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus.
I hope you ban the people reporting misinformation for false reports.
To any zionist who’s found their way into this comments section. Do you think that Israeli soldiers and leadership should be judged for the sexual assault of Palestinians with the same severity as Hamas members who committed, allowed or promoted sexual violence against their captured prisoners? Who should conduct the appropriate investigation and trial?
Palestinians ‘beaten and sexually assaulted’ at Israeli detention centres, UN report claims
Israel’s use of rape against Palestinian detainees from Gaza exposed
Not a Zionist by any means, but happy to answer in case it’s directed in my direction
Do you think that Israeli soldiers and leadership should be judged for the sexual assault of Palestinians with the same severity as Hamas members who committed, allowed or promoted sexual violence against their captured prisoners?
Yes. (Actually more severity for a couple of different reasons.)
This is the type of question that’s super easy to answer. Yes, anyone on any side who is raping should be punished. That’s, honestly, my whole point in getting all up in arms about “let’s not worry about that rape because of which side is doing it” narratives like OP’s.
Who should conduct the appropriate investigation and trial?
The ICC
in case it’s directed in my direction
I mean zionists specifically because I see some from time to time justifying the extreme damage Israel has committed against civilians, some making a lot of effort to paint Hamas as a bunch of barbarians to further support that position. I only remember seeing you in this thread, and from your posts in it, you don’t seem to be doing that.
That’s, honestly, my whole point in getting all up in arms about “let’s not worry about that rape because of which side is doing it” narratives like OP’s.
Bit off-topic in this comment chain (it would fit yours better) but: whenever I’ve seen someone or an organization pushing positions such as OP’s article, there are a few valid reasons:
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Some media did rush to claim sexual violence far before they had any evidence of it, especially soon after the 7th of October, which should be scrutinized.
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There are differences between: A) Sexual violence committed by an individual or a few, B) That violence being tolerated by their superiors, and C) That violence being supported by their superiors. This distinction is important, since a very large organization having monsters in its ranks isn’t statistically strange (and modern, well-run organizations make sure to punish those monsters and bringing them to one form of justice or another), but that organization not taking measures against those monsters or even promoting their behavior is far more serious.
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Plenty of media has ignored and continues to ignore the previous differences, and now that there is evidence of A, they use it to claim C.
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Those bad journalistic practices get used to promote violence against innocent Palestinians and support jingoistic horror.
Personally, I had no doubt that there would be monsters in Hamas who would abuse the prisoners in their captivity, but the organization itself has an interest in making sure that the prisoners who make it out alive say that they were treated humanely (as we’ve seen with some of them). Attacking civilians and taking them hostage is already really terrible to start with, but noting what’s being done out of logical political goals and what’s being done out of sheer sadism is important. If we compare Hamas with the Israeli government and army, we do currently already have evidence that the latter do at the very least tolerate abuse of Palestinian prisoners, apparently with gleeful support from much of Israel since they celebrate that violence by sharing it in social media.
Could there be people taking positions aesthetically close to mine who are, however, defending them in bad faith, as they just want to shield Hamas? There must be some, but the environment is heated enough that anyone who doesn’t take a nuanced enough position is going to be called out sooner than later. Although figuring out the most reasonable positions is far more important, in my view.
Some media did rush to claim sexual violence far before they had any evidence of it, especially soon after the 7th of October, which should be scrutinized.
The Israeli government made up some crazy imaginary shit that they had been victims of, because that’s in their DNA at this point, and some people in the press believed them who should have known better. But also, there was a flood of victims of the attack who came back saying they had been raped. That infamous NYT story consists of a whole bunch of accurate information and then a couple made up stories from Israel’s government, and for some reason everyone remembers it as all made up or a rush to judgement or whatever, when the main thrust of the article was true (as validated by the later in-depth UN investigation which found a shitload of evidence of systemic rape whether sanctioned or otherwise.)
There are differences between: A) Sexual violence committed by an individual or a few, B) That violence being tolerated by their superiors, and C) That violence being supported by their superiors. This distinction is important, since a very large organization having monsters in its ranks isn’t statistically strange (and modern, well-run organizations make sure to punish those monsters and bringing them to one form of justice or another), but that organization not taking measures against those monsters or even promoting their behavior is far more serious.
I… more or less agree with this. I think you might be understating the scale of Hamas’s sexual violence or the degree to which it’s sanctioned by their leadership. But yes, Israel’s in more of a position of power, and they’re more organized about it; I agree. I honestly don’t even want to compare the degree of cruelty involved on the two sides because what’s the point; they’re both horrible.
Personally, I had no doubt that there would be monsters in Hamas who would abuse the prisoners in their captivity, but the organization itself has an interest in making sure that the prisoners who make it out alive say that they were treated humanely (as we’ve seen with some of them). Attacking civilians and taking them hostage is already really terrible to start with, but noting what’s being done out of logical political goals and what’s being done out of sheer sadism is important.
I think you should read the UN report, if you have not. I’m not aware of any attempt at treating the prisoners, or deceased victims of the violence before they died, humanely. From the organization or the individuals. Do you have a source for this, like interviews with hostages where they said they were treated humanely, or something? What’s in the UN report describes the exact opposite of that.
I wouldn’t try to excuse Hamas just because their root cause is just. Israel specifically props up Hamas and funds them because they are the most violent and corrupt faction in Palestine, and they will do monstrous things which can then be used to “justify” Israel’s crimes which it wanted to do anyway.
Although figuring out the most reasonable positions is far more important, in my view.
Honestly, like I say, to me it’s not super complicated. Punish the guilty (which in large part means stop shielding Israel from prosecution for their crimes; certainly no one is making much of any attempt to shield Palestine from the consequences of Hamas’s crimes.) How to do that and how to arrive at peace is complex, but “is this war crime that whatever people did, a war crime” is a lot simpler: The answer is yes.
Reddit was in a frenzy over the claim on October 7 itself. The major basis behind it was a video of an Israeli prisoner with what appeared to be blood on the back of her pants. The major worldnews sub banned anyone who questioned the claim. Weeks later it turned out that the blood on her bottom was because she had cut her ankle and was sitting or kneeling in the back of the truck and got it on her pants, not that she had been raped like many assumed.
They should have asked Annalena Baerbock she has seen the videos.
Out of curiosity, if this is ever legally recognized as a genocide, is there anything human-rights law or international law says about people knowingly spreading lies in support of it?
Edit: And will she be just as vigilant about Israel systematically raping prisoners as a form of torture (something for which there actually exists multiple sources).
I can’t speak for that specific article but nachdenkseiten.de is usually full of shit. They spread misinformation and are nazi apologists. Please be careful with your sources and try to verify information you read online.
What a video in that article
Journalist: Can you confirm that you have seen video evidence of rape? The israeli government claims there is none
German official: are you saying that you don’t believe the government of israel?! Shame on you!
Journalist: No you said you saw footage of it and the israeli government says it does not exist
German official: Rape denier! Rape denier!
Yep that sums it up
I only read the article before, but Christ that video is shocking. He just intensionally twists the question three times, and then accuses the journalist of not doing his job for only citing two sources (the fucking Israeli government and the UN). Plus the moderator constantly interrupting the journalists while the government is just obviously lying. Staatsräson in action.
FWIW, The Times is a center-right publication that’s somewhat more factually accurate in their reporting than the New York Times is. So it’s kind of a big deal for them to admit that there just isn’t any evidence other than extremely suspicious claims about any widespread, systematic sexual violence.
