cross-posted from: https://feditown.com/post/744772
I use passkeys and find them great, mind you I know that you need at least 2 of them so you have a backup. I also use yubikeys at work and they are the same issue, you need 2 of them in case 1 breaks or gets lost.
Maybe the setup should be, make sure you have 2 passkeys on 2 different devices? but not in your password manager
I’d be interested in a discussion of his points here :) those sound like valid points he’s making
edit: I think I’ve misunderstood the point of the article. He is saying passkeys are dangerous for people without password managers, therefore for most people passwords are still better (since most people don’t use password managers). It’s not so much a problem with passkeys, but the lack of password managers.
Even in the best case scenario, where you’re using an iPhone and a Mac that are synced with Keychain Access via iCloud
Surely the better-case scenario would be using a password manager?
The article doesn’t address the recommended use-case of passkeys + password manager, which makes it kind of irrelevant.
But that is exactly what he recommends, using a password manager - with one time email authentication for the first login as an extra step, right?
But that is exactly what he recommends, using a password manager - with one time email authentication for the first login as an extra step, right?
Nope.
Using a cross-platform password manager with synced passkeys is different and much more secure than using a password manager with email TOTPs or sign-in links with emails that aren’t end-to-end encrypted.
And password manager adoption is much higher than PGP keyserver adoption, and if you can’t discover someone’s public key you can’t use it to encrypt a message to them, so sending end-to-end encrypted emails with TOTPs/sign-on links isn’t a practical option.
According to Statista, 34% of Americans used password managers in 2023 (a huge increase from 21% in 2022), so it’s not even like the best case scenario is rare.
Seems to me the whole argument boils down to “they (the passkeys) are generally saved in proprietary non-communicating stores”, which is fair. But then the problem is not the passkey, it’s the fact that we (as usual) give all our stuff to corps. It’s the eternal struggle of easy of use vs. better security.
I host my own vaultwarden btw 😊
The problem with passkeys is that they’re essentially a halfway house to a password manager, but tied to a specific platform in ways that aren’t obvious to a user at all, and liable to easily leave them unable to access of their accounts.
Agreed, in its current state I wouldn‘t teach someone less technically inclined to solely rely on passkeys saved by the default platform if you plan on using different devices, it just leads to trouble.
If you’re going to teach someone how to deal with all of this, and all the potential pitfalls that might lock them out of your service, you almost might as well teach them how to use a cross-platform password manager
Using a password manager is still the solution. Pick one where your passkeys can be safed and most of the authors problems are solved.
The only thing that remains is how to log in if you are not on a device you own (and don’t have the password manager). The author mentions it: the QR code approach for cross device sign in. I don’t think it’s cumbersome, i think it’s actually a great and foolproof way to sign in. I have yet to find a website which implements it though.
The author mentions it: the QR code approach for cross device sign in. I don’t think it’s cumbersome, i think it’s actually a great and foolproof way to sign in. I have yet to find a website which implements it though.
The site doesn’t need to implement this; the browser handles that part.
I confirmed this works and logged into Github using Google Chrome on my work computer using a passkey stored in Bitwarden earlier today. I had to enable Bluetooth for Chrome, since I’d had it disabled, but then everything else was seamless.
Every time I’ve tried to understand passkeys I either don’t get it and it’s scary to potentially be locked out or I do understand it and I still find it scary to potentially be locked out.
Even 2fa is tricky.
If my phone is stolen and I don’t have my laptop with backup codes, then I’m not getting into my accounts.
What if both are stolen or damaged at the same time?
Bitwarden has a passkey service + a paid totp service, so I can always use either to log into whatever within two clicks. Yeah it’s less secure than a physical keychain but… Whatever, it’s better than passwords and as easy to use.
In any case, if you atore the backup codes in a place where you can lose them, that’s on you. Upload them into somewhere you control that has good privacy laws.
Passkeys are basically passwords that you don’t send to the server. So they are safer against phishing.
Basically the server has a message. They will scramble it with your public key. And send it to you. Your private key unscrambles the message and then you send the message back to them. So if they receive the original message back. They know you are you. And they never got their hands on your private key at any point. It’s awesome.
2fa is an entirely different thing. And I do wish it was more standard how it works. Some places if you lose it you lose your account (bitwarden). Others you don’t (protonmail).
Everyone should use passkeys. 2fa you have to decide if your case warrants it.
Edit: example of passkeys:
Step 1: they have the message “cat”
Step 2: they encrypt it with your public key and it becomes “acm”
Step 3: they send you the encrypted message “acm”
Step 4: you decrypt the message “acm” into “cat” with your private key.
Step 5: you send them back the message “cat”
Only your private key would be able to decrypt something encrypted with your public key. So they now know you are you. And they never got a hand on your private key. It’s the same as a password except you never send it directly to the server.
Do you memorize all of your passwords? If so, I take that to mean that you don’t use a password manager. Password managers - really, any app with 2FA - have this problem, too. But if you use a password manager and store your 2FA methods in it, then you only need to be able to regain access to your password manager.
If you use a cross-platform password manager with Passkey support, like Bitwarden, you can use it on any of your devices. In the event that you lose all of your devices, if you don’t have an Emergency Contact set up, you will need your password and one of the following to gain access to your account:
- Access to your 2FA method
- Access to your Recovery Code
- If you’re in an enterprise using Duo 2FA, access to a Duo bypass code (contact your Duo admin to request this)
If you use security keys for 2FA, then you should have at least two - one that you keep with you and a backup that you keep in a safe place, like at home in a lockbox.
If you use a TOTP app to log in, or if you use security keys and want another backup, then making sure you’ll have access to the Recovery Code should be your priority. You can write it down and keep it in a few different places - at home, in your car, in your locker at work, etc… You can share it with someone you trust in person or over an encrypted channel (like Signal). You can store it on a flash drive, encrypted by a second password (which can be much easier than your primary password) or even unencrypted, if you generally keep the drive somewhere safe, disconnected from your computer. As long as you remember your password and can access your recovery code, you’ll also be able to regain access to your account, including all of your passkeys.
Emergency Access requires someone else to have access to their Bitwarden account, but assuming you don’t both lose access, it’s a pretty solid solution. When they request access, Bitwarden will send you an email allowing you to accept or reject their request. If you accept or don’t respond within the allotted “Wait Time” (which you configure: 1 day minimum, 90 days maximum) then they’ll be granted access. You also get a choice (when setting this up) to let them takeover the account (resetting your master password) or to just get read-only access.
Maybe you don’t like Bitwarden and want to use some other app, like 1Password, Dashlane, Roboforms, etc… Whatever your choice, familiarize yourself with how to restore access to your account in an emergency. Then you only need to worry about that and not about how to get access to your passkeys that are on your Windows laptop or only synced to your Apple devices.