What are your opinions on the future of back-end web development? Is the Java ecosystem going to wither away as more modern and better solutions are emerging and maturing?
If so, which language/framework and/or programming paradigm do you think will become the new dominant player and how soon?
Personally I would love to see Rust becoming a new standard, it’s a pleasure to write and has a rapidly growing ecosystem, I don’t think it’s far away from overtaking Java. The biggest hurdle imo is big corporations taking a pretty big risk by choosing a relatively new language that’s harder to learn compared to what has been the standard for decades.
Playing it safe means you minimize surprises and have a very large amount of people that are already experts in the language.
Taking the risk will definitely improve a lot of things given that you find enough people that know or are willing to learn Rust, but it also means that you’re trading off Java flaws with Rust flaws. That’s the case however with every big change, and Java flaws are a good enough reason to make a big change.
Java is getting better each year plus Kotlin works in the same eco system and is hyper popular. I don’t think that Java will wither any time soon.
I really like Kotlin, I would much prefer using it at work instead of Java
Why not use it at work? It’s incredibly easy. You can even replace it a single file at a time.
That’s not possible for one person to do out of their own personal preferences in a large scale enterprise application.
It would be a project wide migration with tons of people working on it and testing afterwards.
Java gets a bad reputation from proponents of FOMO/fad-driven development, but the whole Java ecosystem was built for the web. Anyone is hard-pressed to find a better tech stack than Java-based frameworks without resorting to hand waving and passing personal opinions as facts.
I love C# and the whole .NET Core ecosystem, but even I have to admit it’s very hard to argue against java.
fad-driven development
This is certainly a way to dismiss all other programming paradigms, I suppose. Also, having used both C# and Java, I can’t see myself writing another backend in Java again when C# is such a pleasant language to write in. Both languages have flaws of course, but I find C#'s significantly more tolerable than Java’s.
Exactly. The only reason Java is remotely tolerable today is because of influences from those ‘fad’ languages. Kotlin and Scala were also fads when they came out, they just got adopted because Java was utter shit at the time. Hell, even Java was a fad at some point in time.
I think a strong argument could be made for the JVM as a whole to be honest, since it encompasses several languages. That being said, I’m not sure I’ve seen a backend written in Kotlin despite how prominent it is for app development.
Scala got adopted? https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends/?tags=scala%2Cc%23%2Cjava their business model is killing the language
The only reason Java is remotely tolerable today is because of influences from those ‘fad’ languages.
This might be your personal opinion but it is not a very informed one, or in touch with reality. Java frameworks such as Spring still dominate the backend ecosystem and some FANGs still standardize their backend development around it.
This is certainly a way to dismiss all other programming paradigms, I suppose.
My comment has nothing to do with paradigms.
In fact, your strawman is proven to be false by the fact that there is no mainstream tech stack for the web which is not object oriented and provides a request pipeline that uses inversion of control for developers to pass their event handlers. They all reimplement the exact same solution and follow the exact same pattern to handle requests.
Your original comment and this one are exactly what you criticized in your first comment - opinions presented as facts. I encourage you to branch out. You might find that there are other languages and frameworks out there doing cool stuff, and IoC occuring even in the lowest level of languages.
Edit: Since you love facts so much, let’s look at some numbers. According to the Stack Overflow 2023 survey:
- JavaScript, Python, and TypeScript (which is apparently separate from JS here) all are more popular among professional developers than Java. C# and Java are toe-to-toe, with Java only 1.33% ahead (negligible at scale), while JS is more than twice as popular as both languages.
- Node.js takes the lead for web-based frameworks, with Express being the most popular listed framework that I can see. Both flavors of ASP.NET are more popular than Spring Boot among professional developers, and people have been moving towards .NET Core for years now. Flask is only 2% behind Spring Boot as well, and being a Python-based framework, does not use traditional IoC and instead follows more of a service-locator pattern, where many request-related variables are stored in what is essentially thread-local static state.
- Although meaningless on its own in my opinion, it’s still fun to point out. Java is one of the least admired mainstream languages in the survey, falling at 44.11%. It falls behind C++, C#, JS, Python, and TS. The most admired language falls back to Rust for… I forget how many years in a row, which isn’t even an object-oriented language (though borrows some concepts from them).
I can’t describe it. Java is a good language. I just don’t like it, don’t want to write it, am sick of dealing with its build tooling, and have worn thin of all the IDE’s-do-all-the-work-for-me mentality. Good Java programmers are excellent but they are eclipsed by an army of people that haven’t any idea how it works… in my experience.
It may be an opinion, but pointing it out won’t make me like java any more.
I don’t see it withering away anytime soon. My entire career has been enterprise web development (which is why I roll my eyes at all the web dev rants). Every company I’ve worked at has used Java on the backend and some JS framework for the frontend. Java has only been improving in that time and getting much easier to write. I don’t see companies taking an (in their view) unnecessary risk that makes it harder for them to hire and lose efficiency, at least in the short to medium term.
I think the only way that changes is if developers are interested enough to try Rust, or any other language, in their free time. If they like it enough, they’ll suggest it at work. If enough developers are doing that, it’ll slowly shift the local scene.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned golang. We have the usual dichotomy of java and rust but there’s a very very good option for those who are worried about rust adoption.
I vastly prefer writing rust code but go on its own gets you very very similar performance at the cost of developer experience. I think sum types are the #1 requested feature so once that comes I’ll be a much happier boy.
I think Golang had the potential to take over just because it’s so easy to pick up and start contributing.
My last position was Golang focused and our hiring was never focused on experience with the language because we knew that if you understood programming concepts you would succeed in Golang.
Today, I’m working on Rust and while I enjoy it for what I’m using it for (Systems level instead of Web Services) I’d be hesitant to suggest it for most backend application just due to the ramp up time for new developers.
tl;Dr Golang will have an easier time hiring for because no language specific experience is required.
I’d be hesitant to suggest it for most backend application just due to the ramp up time for new developers.
I would probably suggest Rust for that exact reason, you’ll have to fight the language a little bit at the beginning (at least if you’ll have a very “interior mutable” experience instead of a functional background), but it teaches you how to write your code in a nicely relatively uniform compositional safe style, that IMHO can be read quite well between different people (team) and I think is easier to review (as long as it’s not some super magic trait-heavy/proc-macro code of course, but I think for actual applications (vs libraries) that part will be rather low)
Also I think nowadays the barrier into the language is much lower than it was a few years ago. The tooling, specifically rust-analyzer (and probably Intellij Rust too, never tried it though) and the compiler itself got really good in the meantime (I actually think Rust-analyzer is by now the best LSP for any language I know of), so that getting into Rust is likely not that hard anymore (you’ll have to learn/understand a few concepts though, like heap/stack and the lifetime system, but I think that it’s not that hard to learn).
Go just often feels very hacky to write with a lot of quirky things like handling errors, and a lot of missing features like pattern matching or a relatively good type system, I don’t think it really promotes that nice architectures (or limits the programmer kinda).
Yeah it’s pretty crazy how fast you can get going in go. As long as you are aware of a pointer you are mostly good to go.
Just wish it felt better 😫
What is it about go that doesn’t feel good? I have this feeling myself.
I didn’t enjoy parsing JSON with Go, and I the documentation sucked. But it was really really easy to stand up a simple API endpoint. I would have reached for go for the project I am currently working on, but it didn’t have the libraries I needed. It’s interesting.
I’m on the boat that rust is a bit more cumbersome to write that Java/C#. I work in .Net and I really want to give Kotlin a go now.
I guess I’ll just have to wait for MS to add the current trendy feature to C# again for the sum types though lol.
I actually think java is more cumbersome to write, Rust is definitely higher cognitive load though (get the typing right, fight the borrow-checker etc.).
With cumbersome I mean, that the language limits yourself with a relatively bad type system (compared to Rusts) and often results in a lot of boilerplate and IMHO generally promotes the wrong patterns (I think https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition brings this on point in a comical way). But I’m biased, I much prefer functional programming vs object oriented programming…
I remember reading the Hello World edition of that one. I haven’t gone through a big project and a couple of small ones with rust so I’ll have to stop talking hahaha.
But yeah writing inheritance heavy code in Java is the absolute worst and not everything needs an interface and not everything has to use the strategy pattern for a single use case. Java promotes overkill dependency spaghetti so I get that, however interfaces work the same as Rust traits and can be used in the exact same way with POJOs so I’m on the fence.
I’ll have to wait and see which one I’ll like more I guess.
I have not done much GoLang development, but I am working on automating some dependency updates for our kubernetes operator. The language may be good, but the ecosystem still feels immature.
Too many key libraries are on version 0.X with an unstable API. Yes, semantic versioning does say that you can have breaking changes in minor (and patch) releases as long as the major version is still 0, but that should be for pre-release libraries, not libraries ment for production use.
I think that India will be a major factor and there are many Java developers. C-level guys don’t care about programming languages, they do care about cheap labor. So I don’t think that Java is going to wither away anytime soon, at least on a global scale.
This was said 20 years ago and none of it was true. Outsourcing is big but we don’t outsource our highest level jobs. The typical architect role or senior engineer roles
Unless it’s a 10-man startup, a typical company doesn’t employ exclusively architects and senior engineers.
By the way, I think it’s quite arrogant to think about this in terms of outsourcing and “we”. “We” might not outsource everything, but there’s a huge market with a lot of potential beyond borders where “we” are located. That’s why I explicitly said:
I don’t think that Java is going to wither away anytime soon, at least on a global scale.
