Democratic Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia on Sunday said that he believes a strong legal argument can be made to use the 14th Amendment to remove former President Donald Trump from the ballot in 2024, citing Trump’s actions related to the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.
Shortly after Jan. 6, Trump was impeached by the House of Representatives for inciting an insurrection amid his push to overturn his election loss, with 10 Republicans and all Democrats voting to impeach him.
He denied any wrongdoing, and while seven members of his own party joined Democrats to support his conviction, he was ultimately acquitted by the Senate.
I want to preface this by saying I think he is absolutely guilty and should suffer the maximum consequences for it. BUT- I do not like the precedent of not allowing someone on the ballot if they have been indicted but not found guilty or innocent yet. This could apply to all sorts of politicians that people want to conveniently get out of the way. I think it’s a bad idea.
Now- when, and I am certain it will be a when at this point, he is found guilty, please do bar him from office.
14A S3 is not about punishment for a crime. It is about disqualification from office for a specfied condition, exactly in the same way that people who are under the age of 35 years (the condition) are disaqualified from the office of President. People who, having previously taken an oath to uphold the Constitution for the office they held, and then having engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or having given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof (the condition), are disqualified from office.
The condition described in 14A S3 may also be a criminal matter, but that is a wholly separate concern.
Great, again, what’s to stop a Republican in a red state from indicting someone who was, for example, at a Black Lives Matter protest for insurrection because they want to bar them from office? Because that is the precedent being set if you don’t wait for a verdict.
I seem to recall we’ve been over this before.
Elections are handled in the states. The people who are responsible, in a given state, to determine whether someone is qualified to hold office are the ones who make that determination - whether the disqualification comes from Article II of the US Constitution (where the criteria for POTUS qualification are described) or from the 14th Amendment to the same US Constitution.
If someone feels they have been wrongly disqualified - regardless of why they were disqualified - have recourse to seek relief from that condition through state courts (and possibly federal courts, since it’s in the area of constitutional law, but I have other thoughts on that). Or, in the case of 14A S3, for each house of the US Congress to remove that disability each by a two-thirds vote.
In your example, if someone becomes disqualified from the ballot for being at a BLM protest, based on 14A S3, they would seek relief in one of those ways. And I would bet that they would be immediately successful, because BLM protests were not attempting to subvert the federal government, or interfere with the legal operation of federal government official business.
or not even a BLM protest. It could be the most peaceful protest in the world. hell, they’re already retaliating with calls for impeaching biden, and stuff.
(I’m reminded of some amazon worker protests that showed up to an office building near my work. they did the rant. they did the chant. they had some fun confetti things. When they were done, the swept up and left. gotta respect that, lol.)
Because a protest is not an insurrection. It has a definition.
That can be clearly established and ruled in by a judge to set precedent if need be.
and then having engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or having given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof (the condition), are disqualified from office.
the rub is that the 14S2 provides for due process. until he’s convicted in court there will always be a question if that really was an insurrection, in the minds of his supporters.
Flying Squid is absolutely right in that the republicans will retaliate with nonesense charges. (in fact, they already are.)
14S2? Do you mean Section Three?
And I am unclear on what you mean by “provides for due process.”
You’re clearly not reading the post, you replied to. He has been charged but not proven guilty, yet.
It’s not a precedent. The entire reason Amendment 14 is there is because they needed something broad after the Civil War happened. They needed wording that would apply to all of the people who had been on the other side in the Civil War even without convictions. Applying the same standard to Trump is just treating him like they treated all of the people in the past who were elected officials who took up arms against the country or gave aid and comfort to those who did.
What’s to stop them from indicting a Democratic candidate for office, be it anything from president or senator to dog catcher in a red state and then using this to deny their candidacy as revenge for Trump if this happened? Because that’s exactly what they would do. And do it as often as possible. If it doesn’t matter if the indictment leads to a not guilty verdict, you can just indict them for some bullshit charge and not worry about the fact that you know they’ll get off.
Oh, well that’s a great argument.
After all, we know that Republicans in power only misuse power if Democrats have used the same power previously.
I think declaring that if he’s reelected he would lock up his political enemies should be automatic disqualification.
I’m sick of articles saying things like “a case could be made”. Just fucking do it already. Someone needs to start suing to to get Trump off the ballot and not just talk about it.
actually…a lot of people need to do something. which is the purpose behind talking about it first. getting support and consensus for possibly making a case can lead to cases actually being made. it’s not like on TV where the district attourney of america walks up to the judge of america and convicts him. educating people why there are arguments and convincing them they are powerful don’t happen overnight.
A lawsuit isn’t required, if the state election officials do the right thing.
An insurrectionist is an ineligible candidate for US president, just like a non-citizen or someone who’s not 35 yet. The states merely need to follow that existing law, just as they would do if a teenager named Pierre from Paris filed to run for US president. They wouldn’t have to be sued to say no; and Pierre wouldn’t have to be convicted of anything — they’d just say no, he’s not eligible, he doesn’t get listed on the ballot.
Trump is not eligible, just as Pierre is not eligible. Trump’s ineligibility rests on his own actions rather than his age or nationality. But all of those are (dis)qualifications spelled out in the Constitution; they’re not civil or criminal penalties from a court. It’s the job of election officials to enforce them, and a lawsuit only makes sense if they fail to do their job correctly in the first place.
I mean, its the literal text of the constitution, plain as day. Watching people in “shall not be infringed” t shirts try to backpedal is gonna be fun, but they’re conservatives so they’ll figure out a way the law doesn’t apply to them just like how they carve out an exception for their pornographic bibles in the obscenity laws they write.
I mean, they’re perfectly willing to ignore parts of the constitution *cough*well-regulated*cough*
Republicans will fight it tooth and nail. They don’t actually care about the law unless they can manipulate it to benefit them in some way.
Let them fight it; it is their right to do so, in the courts. That is where legal disputes are adjudicated. It would be appropriate for courts, if so requested, to determine as a finding of fact, whether the Jan 6 invasion of the US Capitol for the purposes of preventing legal federal business is an “insurrection” (NM already decided that it was), and whether the actions of a given person rise to the level of “participation,” or “giving aid or comfort to the enemies of the United States.”
The answers to the above are ones that it would be good for the judicial system to rule on, no matter what answer(s) come out of such hearings. The sooner we get to that point, the better.
