Oh wow I would have neverrrrr thought letting the federalist society pack the courts with their shit picks would possibly end up like this! Never I say!
…ughhh
Religion gets a special seat at every table.
In basically every facet of every thing, religion (by which I mean protestant christianity) has an automatic consideration and justification. They are always presumed to be correct, and their justification for this correctness is found within their religion, so it can’t be questioned.
This is poison, and it keeps us stuck in the bronze age in terms of reasoning and thinking.
I’d rather not give up religious rights just to get my LGBT rights. You don’t need to give up one to get the other. Forcing people to support something that goes against their beliefs is wrong, hard stop.
It’s crazy how people think there aren’t religious LGBT people.
Okay I’ll bite….
I’m good with religious rights, but like ALL rights, they end when they attempt override the rights of others. What religious rights are you worried about losing?
So religious rights END the moment they suggest that someone shouldn’t exist or is somehow immoral. Glass houses and all.
You can practice your religion all you’d like, and I’ll practice mine, but the second you start “protesting pride” or something insane like that, you’ve crossed the foul line.
I don’t show up at your Sunday services to protest the existence of the Catholic church for the same reason (or mosques, temples etc…)
So! If your religion is against abortion, that’s fine, don’t get one! But your religion shouldn’t dictate what I can do, that’s over the foul line.
This part, right here. I’d never want anyone’s religious freedoms infringed on, that’s not how that’s supposed to work but someone’s religious freedoms can’t infringe on others’ rights and freedoms. There’s supposed to be a separation of church and state because of this. One’s beliefs are PERSONAL to oneself and using those beliefs to dictate how others should live is wrong. Full stop.
One of the major cases ruled on which this article no doubt references (it is behind a paywall app I can’t read it) is the case where a web designer was being sued for refusing to make a pride site.
That’s overriding the rights of the designer, who would have been compelled to express and associate themselves something they do not agree with.
Religious rights are free speech rights. You don’t get to force people to not say or believe something just because you disagree with it. That goes true in reverse as well.
Nothing is stopping you from going to a church and protesting its existence. That’s completely legal and part of your free expression rights. At the same time however you don’t get to dictate what they can and can’t say either.
Okay so we will ignore That this case was built upon entirely fabricated lies. (The people in question entirely deny any such request being made)
I can understand the “forced speech“ argument, but there needs to be some limits there. I mean if I build a website for someone, I don’t need to put my name on it nor my logo or anything, so I don’t really have to be THAT associated with it. What if this were a racist or antisemitic case? Same idea, but I refused to make a cake for a black or Jewish person (or some other obviously bigoted reason)
Where do we set the reasonable limits? Or can I just post a sign on my web design or cake shop saying that I refuse to serve black folks?
What then? Where are the reasonable limits?
A web designer is not a church. And a wedding is a wedding. Same sex marriage is legal in the US, and we can assume that most same sex couples who want to get married will want to have a wedding, whether it’s religious or secular, and that’s their protected right to do so.
Your argument makes sense for a church to pick and choose who they perform weddings for, because that’s their religious freedom as a religious institution. And the couple should choose a church that wants to support them. A same sex couple can go to a different church and have a religious ceremony by a different Christian pastor who believes in and supports their right to get married.
But a web designer is not a religion - it’s a service being provided for a wedding, which happens to be for a same sex couple, i.e. a wedding for a legal marriage between two people of a protected class.
So the web designer should just exercise their right to not be in the fucking wedding business if they have a problem with weddings.
America was founded on the freedom to believe in crazy things, so to a great extent I agree with you. But all rights—including speech, privacy, and religion—have limits, and these limits need to delineate the space between the competing rights of others.
If gay people have the right to marry, then a county clerk cannot have the right to deny marriage certificates to gay couples.
If people of legally protected classes have a right to conduct business without fear of discrimination, then businesses cannot have the right to refuse service to those people, for religion or any other reason.
lgbtq+ rights dont interfere with the rights of religious people. period. giving lgbtq+ people the same rights as everyone else has not and will not interfere with the rights of religious people. and like you said there are religious lgbtq+ people. giving them the right to marry or adopt or make medical decisions for their partner doesnt effect anyone else.
what, i as an atheist, am sick of is religious people forcing their crap on me. cool your religion is against gay marriage and abortion, dont have either then. but that shouldnt effect me or the decisions i make. why should someone be forced into parenthood when they wanted an abortion but someone elses religion said no. person c should not be able to make the decision for persons a and b there. yet here we are.
Are you okay with businesses that refuse to serve Jews? Because that’s what SCOTUS legalized.
Should a Jewish run bakery be forced to decorate a cake saying “Praise Allah”? Or a Muslim graphic designer be forced to make shirts with the Star of David?
Yes. Neither of those things violates their beliefs anyway.
