I think there’s a simpler, more personal way to make this point. Here’s a few thought experiments:
Imagine you work for a company that lays you off, even while doing enough stock buybacks and executive bonuses such that they could’ve paid your salary for 1000 years. After you get laid off, imagine what would happen if you just ignored them and continued doing your work.
Or, your landlord doesn’t renew your lease because they think you’re ugly and they don’t want ugly people living in their building. Imagine what happens if you just stay, even if you keep sending the landlord their monthly rent on time.
Both of these situations end with armed, taxpayer-funded agents physically removing you from the premises by any means necessary; it is only the omnipresent threat of state violence that keeps capitalist control over their private property. We don’t see the violence because we’ve been trained from an early age not just to accept it, but to not even see it.
^ This is the winner, right here. The crux, as it were.
Modern society always ultimately boils down, eventually, to might makes right… just with some extra steps.
I agree with you. That said, as humans, we’re not yet evolved past defending territory we’ve chosen to live on. I think we still need “might” as an option for response, until we as a creator evolve further.
I don’t know if it’s possible to get rid of the final might destination on the continuum of responses to issues, but I think we can agree that the “extra steps” part between “an annoyance” and “possible danger to individuals and society” is extremely lacking and narrow.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
“Warfare is of vital importance to the state, it is a matter of life and death.” -Sun Tzu.
A hundreds of years old warlord recognized this, it’s a thought independent of economics. As long as there’s more than one nation-state on this planet, might is always the end result, including defense from an aggressor.
The idea of inherent violence solely being a capitalist trait doesn’t tell the whole truth because the need for might exists as long as there’s power dynamic, which exists as long as there is govt.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
That’s not exclusive to capitalism .
Very true, although I can’t think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things like personal property etc and that’s not necessarily anything specific to capitalism either.
Some very smart and imaginative anarchist philosophers have been working on exactly that for a very long time, from Mikhail Bakunin 200 years ago to more modern writers like Noam Chomsky or David Graeber. I think their work is worthwhile.
Luckily solutions don’t rely on your imagination.
If people who “can’t think of a better way” would stop trying to impose their lack of imagination on the rest of us we would be able to progress.
There are smarter people than you or I in the world and they aren’t the ones running things, the ones whispering, “You’re nothing without me”
The first step of any abusive relationship is recognizing it’s an abusive relationship. The second is to stop making excuses for your abuser and just leave, no matter what they claim the cost to be.
Yes and there are people who can’t leave, eg have no place to go, no means of survival, otherwise. Disabled, power differentiate between men/women/children, etc.
I can’t think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things
I can’t think of a worse one.
Sorry, it’s the internet so I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not (I’m hoping hyperbole).
Are you genuinely saying you think everyone using violence at their own discretion for example is better?
This applies in general to copyright.
It’s bullshit that exists solely by the power of the state. It only exists as long as we all agree it exists, ever person on the planet. It has only existed for a few centuries but no one can imagine a world without.
Capitalism is the same except worse since no one can agree on what capitalism means. The solution is always to capitalism harder.
Not playing devils advocate by choice: there are systems in place (at least in more democratic countries) that force the employer and the landlord to keep you if you havent done anything wrong.
At will employment is an american joke.
Still, paying more for the shareholders and CEOs than the actual work your water, food and transportation needs is insane.
The idea that I can buy my way around laws and others rights is disgusting to the core.
This is mostly on point, but it also reproduces the 100 companies 71% line.
100 corporations are responsible for 71% of emissions related to fossil fuel and cement production, not 71% of total global emissions.
Of the total emissions attributed to fossil fuel producers, companies are responsible for around 12% of the direct emissions; the other 88% comes from the emissions released from consumption of products.
It’s unfortunately not true. Just widley quoted.
I think it’s closer to 25% for fuel burning, not 12% where did you get 12?
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emissions-data
if they didn’t dig it out of the ground it couldn’t be used at all. they have the responsibility
If we didn’t use fossil fuels, literally billions of people would die within months.
We need to transition away, not stop cold turkey
No. It’s the System that encurages them to dog it out that is to blame. A System that is build around exponancial groth. Those 117 companies wouldn’t dig or pump that stuff out, consumers wouldn’t live lifes that use up extraordenary amounts of energy compared to any other time in human history, goverments wouldn’t make the GDP their holy grail, if not for the hyper capitalist framework that has enabled this to happen.
So, it you have to blame something, blame the bloody System.
And, btw., don’t use the “the companies are responsible” line to excuse not changing how you consume and how much you personaly continue. I am not saying that you are doing so, but I’ve read it to many times by now.
Yes, BP pushed the carbon footprint idea. Yes, BP and any other oil company has to do chance their buisness model. That does not mean that All of us will not have to degrow the way we live. Every one of us needs to start acting in a more sustainable manor, from Individual to company to government, if we want to minimise suffering for future generations. If we don’t (and honestly it doesn’t look like it) their will be a systematic reduction in complexity anyway. The only question is if it will be by design or by desaster.
“I want food and to not freeze/overheat” is not a desire based on exponential growth, but is a desire that currently requires fossil fuels.
Much like the “9 million starve” number, the argument against fossil fuels is incredibly misleading.
The argument presented here is based on complete ignorance of the history of the human race.
Reason #1
The concept of property ownership is not a product of capitalism. This idea is literally as old as the oldest known civilization to keep written records, Mesopotamia.
Concern with property, its preservation, and its use shaped not only the Mesopotamian legal tradition but also economic and social practice, notably the ability to sell and to buy land and to transfer property through marriage and inheritance.
In Mesopotamian culture, property was owned by the state, by the temple, and by private families. Records show a distinction between movable property (material goods) and immovable property (land), and the selling, trading, repossessing, inheriting and transfer of all types of property.
Here is an example of a cuneiform tablet recording an agreement about the division of property.
There is even an equivalent of eminent domain:
When Hammurabi asked, “When is a permanent property ever taken away?” he was referring to the established customary legal principle that land was the permanent property of a family.
Hammurabi was not a capitalist. Babylon was not a capitalist nation.
Capitalism did not “invent legal privileges around property”.
Reason #2
Conquest of territory happened long before capitalism ever existed. Colonialism was hardly a new concept.
Genghis Khan was not a capitalist. Alexander the Great was not a capitalist. Julius Caesar was not a capitalist. Napoleon Bonaparte was not a capitalist.
If you require citations for this part of my argument, I suggest you find a basic text on world history at your local library.
Conclusion
I’m not going to address the other “reasons” as they are faulty conclusions drawn from the previously addressed faulty premises.
I am not arguing that these things are right and good. I am arguing that linking them specifically to capitalism represents a desperately uneducated understanding of human society and history. This is such a bad take, it reeks of teenage anarchist and “money is the root of all evil” oversimplification.
Comparing property law under hammurabi with property law as it presently exists is absolutely laughably ridiculous and you know it is. You should take your capitalist apologia elsewhere.
I have made no apology for capitalism. If this is what you got from what I wrote, then you have trouble with reading comprehension.
I did not make a comparison between Mesopotamian property law and present property law. My point was that private ownership of property is a function of human society literally as old as recorded history, as well as the idea of legal privileges around property ownership.
Because the cartoon is based on the premise that these ideas come from capitalism, the entire argument is faulty.
I’ll quote from my original post:
I am not arguing that these things are right and good. I am arguing that linking them specifically to capitalism represents a desperately uneducated understanding of human society and history.
It’s a bit disingenuous arguing that capitalism is somehow a new concept, and colonialism isn’t.
I mean the terms capitalism and colonialism are both coined way after the practice of those systems. I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.
Colonialism is the same, as you seem to intuit, considering other people and subduing them didn’t need a philosophical framework in order for it to be enacted.
In most civilizations wealth tends to accumulate at the top of the societal pyramid, which is capitalism. The pharaohs and sumerian kings alike are capitalists. They profit of the labour of others.
There’s a reason you’re unwilling to entertain other arguments, because you’re moving the goalposts and are afraid they will fall off the field.
This is such a weird take… how far removed from reality are you to actually believe that authoritarian feudalism is a form of capitalism?
Wealth accumulation is not capitalism. Capitalism enables wealth accumulation, but the opposite isn’t true in the slightest.
All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
arguing that capitalism is somehow a new concept, and colonialism isn’t.
I am not sure how you reached this conclusion. Yes, capitalism is new in comparison to Mesopotamian culture, and therefore the idea of property ownership. No, it’s not new in comparison to European colonialism.
I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.
I have never heard or read any theories that try to make an argument like this. I would be very interested if you had some that you could point me to, but offhand this seems like it would require major stretching of the definition of capitalism in order to make recorded events fit into it. I think it would mostly be an exercise in confirmation bias.
Accumulation of wealth is not inherently capitalism, nor is simply profiting from another’s labor. This definition is so broad that it would make anyone in history who ever acquired anything that they did not previously own into a capitalist.
There’s a reason you’re unwilling to entertain other arguments, because you’re moving the goalposts and are afraid they will fall off the field.
Which other arguments am I unwilling to entertain, and which goalposts am I moving?
My argument is, as from the beginning, that the concept of private ownership of property and legal rights attached to such is not born of capitalism but is in fact as old as recorded history. Because the conclusions in the cartoon depend on this initial faulty idea, the whole thing is nonsense.
The ownership of the means of production and power aren’t inherently new either. As private property is as old as civilization, the appropriation of capital is too.
Be that in the country of the ruler (the state didn’t own marble quarries in Egypt, the pharao did) out abroad (gold mines in what we would call Ethiopia), which could be called colonialist.
To name something colonialist before the Greek policy of colonies in the Mediterranean, is as debatable as calling an ancient economy capitalist.
However, capitalism is very pervasive. Levi Strauss showed in Tristes Tropiques that if there are isolated civilizations without a system of ownership and wealth accumulation, any contact will destroy that state.
I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.
I’d love to see your citations and reasoning on this, assuming it doesn’t fall into “capitalism is when anyone owns anything or sells anything”
Because this
In most civilizations wealth tends to accumulate at the top of the societal pyramid, which is capitalism. The pharaohs and sumerian kings alike are capitalists
Is ridiculous.
You seem to be arguing words and not ideas.
You, "Bingo bango! You made a statement that can be technically untrue, therefore you are entirely incorrect!"
Debunking someone’s point first requires engaging with it and you never even came close. So what about Mesopotamia? Let’s take your word on that, does it change the core point? Nope.
You, "Shazam! People were stabbing before capitalism, therefore when someone gets stabbed under capitalism, it's fine! Shazam!"
Then you go on to say that because a certain type of violence happened before capitalism, it’s cool that it exists.
You, "Kersplat! You are icky, and I will stop there, the rest of your post is probably stupid anyway!"
Do you have brain damage my dude?
As I understand it, the comic states :
1. Create penalties for not being a property/capital-owner.
2. Acquire property/capital through violence
3. With violently acquired capital-backing, use step #1 to exert control
4. Population attacks itself to avoid rule #1, clawing to attain property/capital
5. The system promotes population infighting, allowing the power-holders to exist un-noticed.
Who gives a shit about who invented the baton when you’re getting hit in the face. Well, I expect that you do.
Capitalism is not violent and greedy. Humans are violent and greedy.
Economic systems and sociocultural organization principles are irrelevant and attributing historical human violence to them is fallacious.
you go on to say that because a certain type of violence happened before capitalism, it’s cool that it exists.
No, I specifically did not make any such argument, and made a statement about this in my conclusion because I anticipated that someone would attempt to dismiss what I said by deliberately misinterpreting it and then putting words in my mouth. Did you even read my entire post?
Who gives a shit about who invented the baton when you’re getting hit in the face.
The person that made this cartoon cares, and clearly so do you, as you both want to pin it on a particular source for purely emotional reasons, which is evidenced by the fact that you have made no rational argument based on fact and instead have attempted to dismiss what I wrote while presenting zero evidence for your own point of view.
Capitalism is not violent and greedy. Humans are violent and greedy.
Economic systems and sociocultural organization principles are irrelevant and attributing historical human violence to them is fallacious.
I think you have not actually made a case for this claim, and it isn’t obviously true. To me it seems obviously untrue. The organizational structure of human society is very often a driving force for harm, because harm is simply what happens when we fail to solve the nontrivial problem of human cooperation. People with good intentions can be a part of a larger dynamic in which they are overwhelmingly incentivized to be a part of that harm, and may even be absolutely prevented from not being a part of it. Hateful people with bad intentions can be themselves a product of these failures. You can’t reduce this to the moral choices of individuals because individuals may have no knowledge or agency over the systems that shape their world and force their hands.
I think “violence” might not be the best word for this, but it isn’t “fallacious”.
Am I having a stroke or does the first sentence make no sense? Shouldn’t it be more instead of less? If a company always sells for less than the cost to produce, it’ll go out of business rather quickly I’d think. Obviously there are temporary strategies like this that are used to beat competitors, but that’s not what this is talking about.
I think you just have it misunderstood. The comic assumes that you are the laborer, not the capitalist. As the image at this part of the infographic shows, from the perspective of the laborer, you are paid $5 for an item that is sold on the market for $50
Yes, the image is correct, but I think theUnlikely was refering to the text “Capitalism exists by selling the value you produce for less than your labor costs.”
It’s backwards, it should be the value you (the laborer) produce is sold for more than than your labor costs.
ok, yea now I can understand how that sentence could be confusing. It’s technically correct, but written kinda backwards as people would normally understand it
The comic assumes that you could ONLY be the laborer. It’s ignoring the fact that no one is stopping you from making/buying something and selling it for a profit.
I’m a bench jeweler and I know plenty of other craftspeople who make a whole-ass living off selling shit they made for more than labor/materials cost. The fact that an employer will take advantage of you isn’t a failing of capitalism, it’s a facet of human greed that will permeate any economic/political system.
Making things or selling things is not capitalism. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production; things like factories, tools, intellectual property, etc.
On the point of greed, I disagree that it’s just simply “human nature”. However, even if it was, why should we have an economic system that prioritizes greed?
yeah wtf, the first sentence and nobody picked up on this. We‘re completely fucked
We’re actually “fucked” at everyone’s (my own included) inability to draw inferences from context, and! Often disingenuous character of a lot of people using this unclear manner of speaking. The cartoon isn’t presenting this ambiguous statement ini bad faith, probably just oversight or perhaps that’s not the author’s/translator’s native language.
The state is violent and community is violent and privacy is violent
Can anyone come up with an ideology that is not violent and can actually be implemented in the real world with real actors that aren’t smelling roses and giving out hugs?
Side note, any ideology that claims your neighbors are the enemy aren’t worth a damn.
What is your criteria for “can actually be implemented in the real world”? This varies by the individual. I need to know what your perspective on this is. Could you explain why capitalism isn’t violent?
I think it’s important to note that your neighbors might be the enemy… most people are great, some are not.
There will always be antisocial behavior (the basis for what we call crimes), yes. However, that doesn’t mean your neighbor is the enemy because they might be one of the few people that do antisocial things.
This is due to artificial scarcity. The world is abundant in resources. In an equitable society, people may steal, but when everyone has their needs met, anything else is extra, and surprisingly many may be happy with “enough” or “enough plus a little with storable necessities belonging to everyone.”
Personally, I think the only reason evil exists is because the world is unfair, some are advantageous and some are not. This causes people to refuse to “play” fairly which causes bad behaviors such as deception, exploitation, murder, etc. The only way to eliminate or reduce evil is to make the world fairer. One of the ways I can think of is for the fortunate to help the unfortunate.
I don’t believe this to be true. Fairness only matters to people who value fairness. Many people value fairness, but it is irrational to believe that everyone values fairness. Some, not most or even many, don’t care about fairness fundamentally. For these people, interesting fairness does nothing for them. These are the people we need to protect others from while also providing an environment that didn’t necessarily mean removing or killing them.
But what causes people to value fairness so little or so much? When I support equality, I don’t just mean wealth or resources, but everything, and in this case it’s intellect or knowledge. When people have different intellect or knowledge, there is bound to be misunderstanding or miscommunication or other issues. People who have low empathy or are ignorant or dumb to realize how fairness affects people can make things worse. I guess in this case we can make everyone equally smart so no one can deceive and no more misunderstanding. Can’t make smart people dumber so I suggest making dumb people smarter which is to give education to those who need it.
Except for those deformed by conditioning into abject servility, everyone values fairness at the moment of being unfairly deprived of the means of one’s own survival.
Valuation of fairness is a rather robust human trait. In some individuals it may be less pronounced, but as a tendency it is robust, not only among humans, but also among various non-human species.
Members of societies with low levels of inequality generally have more favorable subjective experiences, even those within the cohorts with greater privilege.
Nurturing the vitality of society as a whole, and the health of relations in community, has been a facet of human behavior indispensable for our survival.
Capitalism, in theory and in practice, guides behavior be providing incentives for producing value.
However, REGULATION is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to remove incentives from antisocial things, and incentivize pro social behavior that isn’t profitable.
People keep fucking up that second part, and then wonder why corruption is so widespread. Corruption is perfectly predictable. We need to build incentives to reward and promote good behavior.
Edit: corruption exists in every system and it’s why things like pure communism and socialism don’t work.
I’d actually love to hear more about your perspective. I totally agree with the idea that regulation is required to disincentivize antisocial behavior, but how does that relate to “pure” socialism? What do you mean by that phrase?
It’s just the “trust me bro” thing.
In capitalism the system is supposed to work like:
-private ownership of value producing assets -individuals seek profit -legal system/government force protects the individuals -competing for market share protects the consumers -market forces regulate prices and spending -logistics become the responsibility of the businesses, incentivized by profit - ie don’t let people starve because you make money by selling food.
Under socialism and communism, the people or the state own the value producing assets…
-now the state is supposed to pursue profit, instead of the individuals. -now protecting the people is against the interests of the state -there is no competition against the state because it’s all state-owned monopoly -there are no market forces regulating prices and spending, it’s just committees or something? And it’s an impossible problem -because black markets form for valuable things that aren’t available -etc etc etc
We just have too many examples of systems that promise the population that they will be rewarded for “trusting the party” and “working hard for your neighbors” but in the end it’s state propaganda, policing our neighbors, starving by the millions, etc.
Capitalism can be shit too, because there are problems that are profitable to ignore. Like the housing crisis.
-houses and rent extremely profitable -buy more properties and rent them for profit -as population grows and density increases, value increases -market says just raise rents
In this situation:
-I don’t want traffic to improve. Because I don’t want people to be able to move further from the city center where my over valued properties are. -i don’t want people to be able to work from home -i don’t want more houses built, because I don’t want to dilute the market and reduce my value -the only incentive for developers to come in and build more homes is … The price they can sell the homes for. So the system keeps the problem in place.
Consumers want to buy homes. The government wants votes. So we get policies like George Bush letting families but homes with no down payment, which just raises prices because now there are more shoppers but not more product.
There are many solutions to the housing crisis, but all of them require owners and landlords to take a haircut. I’m probably a fan of decentralizing cities and shifting to increased work from home with zoning improvements for mixed commercial/residential in suburban environments. That shifts the market away from the dense areas it’s currently focused. That could (hopefully) interest developers to build commercial/residential properties in these areas, so everyone wins in the long run.
The other issue is this development needs to be fast. The push for green buildings with fully sealed envelopes and intense insulation, etc, makes it harder for Joe schmo to get into the homebuilding business, or just build his own home. We need grants and other incentives to promote that kind of behavior, too.
Etc etc.
“Privacy” is not violent, nor implicated in the discussion. Private property of course is mentioned and is pivotal.
Private property is a social relationship, entrenched as a social construct, and protected by the capacity of the state to inflict violence.
Without violence, neither the state nor private property would continue to exist, because both represent power imbalances, which would not long be respected by the disempowered, except by the invocation of force by the powerful.
Community is not bound in violence as an indispensable feature.
Surely, violence occurs in community, generally as a consequence of conflict that had previously escalated incrementally. Within community, members generally may resolve the root cause of conflict, including by directly addressing imbalances in power. Communities are not characterized by the necessity of violence for them to preserve themselves.
Healthy communities both seek to resolve conflict before any erupts into violence, and seek to contain violence when it emerges.
Any community that is not prevented from doing so by outside powers can achieve such a level of health.
A capitalist society at large cannot prevent violence, because violence is both an inevitable consequence and an indispensable requisite for the overarching conflict within capitalist society, of the irreconcilable and conflicting interests between those who own private property, versus those who must sell their labor to survive.