Hey all,
So I’m looking to take an active step here to understand better some things that my straight/white/cis/middle-aged male brain has had a tough time wrapping itself around, particularly in the gender identity front.
I’m working from the understanding of physical sex as the bio-bits and the expressed identity as being separate things, so that part is easy enough.
What’s confusing to me though is like this. If we take gender as being an expression of your persona, a set of traits that define one as male, female, or some combination of both then what function does a title/pronoun serve? To assume that some things are masculine or feminine traits seems to put unneeded rigidity to things.
We’ve had men or women who enjoy things traditionally associated with the other gender for as long as there have been people I expect. If that’s the case then what purpose does the need for a gender title serve?
I’ll admit personally questioning some things like fairness in cis/trans integrated sports, but that’s outside what I’m asking here. Some things like bathroom laws are just society needing to get over itself in thinking our personal parts are all that special.
Certainly not trying to stir up any fights, just trying to get some input from people that have a different life experience than myself. Is it really as simple as a preferred title?
Edit: Just wanted to take a second to thank all the people here who took the time to write some truly extensive thoughts and explanations, even getting into some full on citation-laden studies into neurology that’ll give me plenty to digest. You all have shown a great deal of patience with me updating some thinking from the bio/social teachings of 20+ years back. 🙂
I suppose my followup to that would be what gives someone a specific sense of gender? To say ‘I am a woman’ is taking societies interpretation of woman as being right. What differentiates that from ‘I am a man who likes womanly things’?
What separates the ‘tomboy’ woman from a trans-masc?
(Please excuse any terminology missteps if I use things wrong too)
We’re not sure about the neurological mechanism behind the innate sense of gender as of yet, but we have been able to confirm that there are structural differences between masculine and feminine brains that are more consistent with people’s reported gender identity than their genitalia.
And that’s the fundamental difference between tomboys and trans men, the former are gender-nonconforming women and the latter are men’s brains in female bodies.
It’s difficult to explain what gender dysphoria feels like to someone whose gender identity is consistent with their sex. There’s a sense of “wrongness” that can suffuse through everything from one’s interactions with other people in society to one’s own thought processes under the influence of the wrong set of sex hormones.
We’re not sure about the neurological mechanism behind the innate sense of gender as of yet, but we have been able to confirm that there are structural differences between masculine and feminine brains that are more consistent with people’s reported gender identity than their genitalia.
Actually, there’s almost no differences between masculine and feminine brains at all. The book delusions of gender by Cordelia Fine goes into this in detail, but the long story short is that just about all science on the difference between men and women is actually just bias of the researchers or poor study design. Honestly it’s a super interesting read if you’re curious about how the brains of men and women are different (spoiler alert, the difference is pretty much entirely social convention and those social pressures can be overcome in very interesting ways) and just how pervasive gender is in our society (babies start to recognize social patterns of gender before even one year of age) and just how deeply it shapes all of our lives.
Actually, a recent study contradicts that:
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2024/02/men-women-brain-organization-patterns.html
The differences aren’t in terms of gross anatomy, but activity levels in the default mode, striatum, and limbic networks.
That dysphoria is the part I really hope to understand I guess. It seems to me that would be a lot of social pressure to conform to an expectation, but to my cis-brain it would seem easier to just say who cares what the ‘norms’ are and just do what you like.
The best analogy that I can imagine is this: Imagine that you went to go get fitted for a suit. You go to a seamster, get fitted, and they make you a suit. You put the suit on and it doesn’t feel right. You tell the seamster and they insist that the suit was made to your measurements and that it is correct (they even have patterns and measurements to prove it.) You shrug, pay the fee, and leave with your new suit. Wearing it out, you confide in your friends that the suit doesn’t fit, but they all tell you that you look great. Despite your insistence that the seams on your shoulders don’t line up and that the waistline is far too off-center, your friends insist that your suit is well-fitted and you look great-- that you should be happy and grateful to have such a fine suit. Meanwhile you feel awful; dreadful. You just know that somebody is going to notice and call you out on your bad suit. You’re trying your best to accept and maybe even show off your expensive, non-refundable, sold as-is attire, but the weight of it and off-balance feeling it provides is a latent part of every move you make and every word out of your mouth. Furthermore, present circumstances have made it impossible for you to have another suit made. Even if you did, they’d just use the same measurements, come up with the same patterns, and make the same mistakes-- No, you’re the one that has to wear the suit; they don’t. You have to feel the fabric against your skin. You have to feel its seams snaking over your body. After wearing it all night, you know what’s wrong with it (or at least what will make it feel right.) Your only recourse is to find a tailor willing to help you alter it to your specifications or to alter it yourself. Let the opinions of everyone else be damned. After all, they’re happy in their suits.
What separates the ‘tomboy’ woman from a trans-masc?
One identifies as a woman; the other does not. It’s really that simple.
I find that the less you try to intellectualize gender, the better because it’s something that’s deeply personal to each person. What I view as being a man is undoubtedly different from what you do, yet we both identify as men.
I’ve found that the easiest way to deal with gender is to simply respect other people’s identities because it’s frankly none of my business why anyone identifies the way they do.
I suppose my followup to that would be what gives someone a specific sense of gender?
I’m 7 years transitioned and I can’t answer that question for you.
It’s not something I rationalised myself in to. It makes no sense. It just is. It’s important to remember that you don’t need to understand to accept.
A lot of these comments have also muddied my understanding of terms now which originally took on a neat physical/psychological = sex/gender split. Looking about the web that still seems to be the common delineation but like the range of people on the planet there are personal interpretations and flavors to such things too.
I get the suspicion that some of the more spirited discussions so far came with a tinge of suspicion that I’m one of the bad folks looking to invade spaces and sow discord, but that’s not the case. For me it’s not a question of acceptance, but really of understanding something foreign to me. I’m a hyper-logical type, does engineering things for fun, ‘feels-like’ for me could be pretty directly translated as ‘makes rational sense’ to the point where many get frustrated.
I get the suspicion that some of the more spirited discussions so far came with a tinge of suspicion that I’m one of the bad folks looking to invade spaces and sow discord,
Yeah, we generally have to have our guard up, especially in these types of threads. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the “just asking questions” type of transphobe, but it is a very real problem for communities like this one. The topic or phrasing of a question can raise red-flags for sure.
But I believe that you’re being sincere.
I’m a hyper-logical type, does engineering things for fun
That’s totally cool! Many so far have presented philosophical answers based more in application of reason than empirical inquiry when you might perhaps prefer an answer based in biological science.
The psychological is rooted in the neurobiological. Psychological can rarely be cleanly separated from the physical. For example, autopsies show some parts of the brain that were thought of as reliable predictors of sex actually correlate much better with gender. And its not just a matter of hormones changing it: trans people who never medically transition are the same as cis people of their gender. Likewise, trans people sometimes experience phantom limb syndrome for parts they’ve never had. And trans women who have bottom surgery basically never had phantom limb syndrome, despite cis men who lose their member often do. Medical transitioning is largely about changing one’s sex to match one’s gender. Additionally, physical markers are part of how people initially gender people. You don’t need to medical transition to be trans, or even want to transition medically, but its an extremely common desire.
I think you also are misreading some peoples comments For example: https://lemmy.socdojo.com/comment/1596353 What you replied to was focused on the social construct that is sex, yet you bring up gender in ways that seem unrelated to the comment you replied to and seem to be conflating the two constructs more than anyone else I’ve seen in the thread.
Also, a lot of mainstream discussion does a bad job at representing a lot of trans people. For example, a lot of trans people don’t want you to ask their pronouns: they want to be at the point where people instinctually gender them correctly. And some closeted trans people don’t want to be asked their pronouns because it either forced them to misgender themselves or come out of the eggshell when they may not be ready for it. Yet the mainstream discussion by allies often misses such nuances. Another example is the “trans people know they’re a [boy/girl] since they were a toddler and fit childhood gender expectations” narrative, which is quite harmful to a lot of eggs who assume they’re not trans just because they didn’t fit that narrative and also leads to people being confused about trans women who are tomboys, trans men who are femboys, and/or why tomboys and femboys aren’t all just trans. But it helps sell a narrative emotionally, so that’s what a lot of people repeat.
I’m a hyper-logical type
IMO, that’s part of the problem. I’m generally the same way, which is why I often get annoyed at myself for being happy about things that make no rational sense. Gender isn’t something that can be understood logically yet in my limited experience.
I suppose my followup to that would be what gives someone a specific sense of gender?
As a binary trans woman my very being in and for myself imparts upon me a capacity for directly revealed self-knowledge regarding my gender, which is to say how I wish to be as a presence and present myself to others within the world.
To say ‘I am a woman’ is taking societies interpretation of woman as being right.
Perish the thought! In general however I might reveal my gender it is as an invitation to others for them to interact with me and understand me as a woman. Try to think of this as less a matter of being right or wrong and more one of how you and another might best both enjoy your interactions together.
What differentiates that from ‘I am a man who likes womanly things’?
Gender does! It is literally that simple.
What separates the ‘tomboy’ woman from a trans-masc?
They would through their understanding of their own genders which grants truth or grants falsehood to statements regarding their gender.
