I don’t agree with Hannah, in this case. Specifically, I challenge anyone who leaves cow methane on a chart or in an argument without covering the CO2 production by non-manure fertilizer or the fact that only depopulation will stop cows from pooping. And unfortunately, a plethora of studies are showing that synethetic fertilizer production creates massive amounts of methane gas as well. I’m fairly convinced she is (perhaps inadvertantly) including that under “cow farm” when it should be under “plant farm”.
She also just handwaves saying transport costs are low despite studies she opted not to cite or rebut that place them at 20%. But here’s the funny part. That was the first link. The second agrees with the 20% figure for logistics (though she uses the term “Supply Chain” and separates physical transport from processing, packaging, and retail storage (all of which are cut out or down from local). Digging into supply chain figures in the left article’s graph, she just disagrees with herself (and, to be honest, other experts).
In fact, the numbers on her second article suggest bias to me in her first article. She blames land use for 1/3 of beef GHG production. But in the second article, only 2/3 of Land Use GHG goes to animal, with the other 1/3 going to “land use for human food”. I’m sure you can see the next line. If Land Use is such a large part of meat GHG production and crops are so good at everything else, then Land Use should be dominant and in-your-face on the crop chart in the first article. Instead, apparently she’s undecided about that?
Look. I can see why you might decide that eating less meat might be the wrong choice for you. But when there are studies that say eating local is important and studies saying eating less meat is important, one article is not going to get me to change my entire life, and risk the environment, just to feel good about myself.
And unfortunately, a plethora of studies are showing that synethetic fertilizer production creates massive amounts of methane gas as we
Obviously, not only from the the Haber-Bosch process which is the most energy intensive single process worldwide, it is used for Ammoniak, nitrogen.
The mining of phosphor leaves huge wastelands and will be rare in about 100 hundred years if we continue.
But manure is not created from thin air. You need to feed animals a lot feed until you get something to eat back. It wastes 20 times more crop compared to plant based diet. Manure will not save us, it destroys nature, water and air.
The IPCC 2022 states even giving up every form of fossile fuel animal industry would push us over 3° increase.
I do not eat any animal products, but the main reason for it that I do not want to kill others if I can avoid it. I don’t want you to import any fancy exotic food for a plant based diet. I don’t, I get my potatoes from my neighbor and mostly buy local foods anyway. Don’t act like you can’t eat local plants and are therefore forced to eat others.
But manure is not created from thin air. You need to feed animals a lot feed until you get something to eat back. It wastes 20 times more crop compared to plant based diet. Manure will not save us, it destroys nature, water and air.
What exactly do you think we should plan to do with all the grass and waste product currently being used in feeding animals? There’s a complex web of dependency between plant and animal farming that I have seen firsthand, and all I ever hear is that cutting half that web off entirely will magically “Just word” and be better than what we have no. Most importantly, I’m convinced I eat carbon neutral even with eat, or at least as close to that as reasonably possible. And I’ve never seen a plan to scale to a world where meat eating is ended, and the massive inefficiencies that would introduce.
The IPCC 2022 states even giving up every form of fossile fuel animal industry would push us over 3° increase.
This is not preciately how I took it. Instead, I took it as more “we need to do everything we can, and the whole world going vegan is more likely than the other major sources”. Ultimately, we would already be in a good place if 7 businesses became carbon neutral. IPCC 2022 cited a LOWER number than most do for methane, only 14% of world methane, only 1/3 of human caused methane. The one or two “experts” I found who specifically pushed for sudden international veganism have also failed to account for the above issues I mentioned. I argue it’s easier to find technologies that can mitigate and reverse emissions than it is to find technologies to let the world cut out meat entirely.
I do not eat any animal products, but the main reason for it that I do not want to kill others if I can avoid it.
Which is absolutely your right. I have become convinced that my mixed diet leads to ultimately less death than a plant-based diet would (trolley problem), but it is not the foundation of my mixed-diet choice. I’m not an anti-natalist, and I’m perfectly fine with the quality of life a typical farm cow lives when compared to a cow in the wild when the alternative is to not be born at all. I know plenty of people who suffer in their lives more than a farm animal will, and yet never once think those people should never have been born.
don’t want you to import any fancy exotic food for a plant based diet. I don’t, I get my potatoes from my neighbor and mostly buy local foods anyway. Don’t act like you can’t eat local plants and are therefore forced to eat others.
Huh? I DO eat local plants. I have a farm down the road and buy almost all the produce we don’t grow there. When we do have to buy from retail establishments, we buy 99% of our produce locally. Yes, about once a year I buy a dragonfruit because it’s a guilty pleasure. So sue me.
But I also get eggs from my neighbor, and occasionally chicken. We have a deer overpopulation problem in my area. When I can, I pick up locally hunted deer from the butcher. My wife has PTSD and it triggers her regarding hunting, so I don’t hunt my own despite the fact she and I are morally on the same page as that. I support that because I consider it ethically better than being vegan because I believe pulling the lever on the trolley is always the right choice, and because I am convinced “what we have is ethical because it is better than the real world alternatives”. There is no trolley track without any bodies on it, in this world.
My wife has PTSD and it triggers her regarding hunting
https://www.wdam.com/2023/07/17/16-year-old-dies-accident-mar-jac-poultry-plant/
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50986683
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506017/
You don’t have to see non human animals as living beeings, even it you think they are just things, you could care about the humans involved.
My neighbor had pigs until the gases fucked up his lungs now he has to roll with O2
What exactly do you think we should plan to do with all the grass and waste product currently being used in feeding animals?
Currently 75% of the product grown is for animal food. Grass fed is less than 10% even in the USA, and all give extra feed. Grass produces way more methane in ruminants compared to starch based feed like soy for which the rain forest is burned down.
and the massive inefficiencies that would introduce.
You know you need massive amounts of feed to others before you can kill them for your pleasure? We could feed 10 billion people with the product we grow right now. Instead we feed it other animals.
I argue it’s easier to find technologies that can mitigate and reverse emissions than it is to find technologies to let the world cut out meat entirely.
Others know it is not possible and act according: https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/01/31/china-includes-cultivated-meat-in-its-plan-for-the-future-of-food
Which is absolutely your right. I have become convinced that my mixed diet leads to ultimately less death than a plant-based diet would
Explain that. A plant based diet uses less resources in every way. You don’t think there are no animals killed for animal feed which is just a bad conversion of food, do you?
We all have a impact on the environment and on others, but acting worse than we have to because of a nirvana fallacy is not acceptable. While our impact on the future is hard to measure it is today when we decide to support killing and abuse or not.
or the fact that only depopulation will stop cows from pooping.
Yes. We kill 80 billions mammals and trillion fish each year and billions are lost to diseases, fire and low profitability. If the whole word would decide to not abuse animals farmers would gas or burn the animals. Once, and not the perpetual killing all meat eaters have no problem with, but the fantasy scenario where we stop killing is a problem?
So you’re an anti-natalist? I try to avoid arguing with anti-natalist vegans because as morally disgusted as I am of their position, there is no way to convince them to change it.
No, I am not. But people who care about animals claiming veganism would kill animals are concern trolls. Support the perpetual killing and raping - or - care about animals.
