Right. I think that’s a very important distinction.
To take it a step further, I think it’s probably quite intuitive and obvious that if you’re born a male, go through puberty as a male, you will have a different body composition than a female. Even with hormone suppressors. They are claiming there is no evidence that this is an advantage.
Well it is, absolutely, depending on the sport. I don’t know that it could be proven that bone density, for instance, helps people perform better. But I know that some sports there is an advantage to being taller. And hormone suppressors aren’t going to reduce that advantage. So that alone is definitive proof that being born a male and going through puberty as a male is advantageous in certain sports (as male’s are taller on average, than females). I don’t know how you could argue that isn’t true.
This just reinforces the idea that we should improve the education and support for trans kids at all levels, specially school and early stages, and allow hormone suppressors before they do any irreversible damage on trans kids and teenagers.
If they are able to make an earlier decision, their lives will be closer to what they need.
In what world is it a good idea to give hormone suppressors to literal children? It’s not a decision any child is capable of making.
Edit: Alright, you guys do have a point in that it’s reversible and safe. My bad.
@StickBugged @ada @melmi @blackhole
You know that’s something that happens even to cis children sometimes, right?
It’s a good idea in a world where that child is aware of their gender identity (which many people develop far earlier than when puberty starts) and about to start going through irreversible changes. The betrayal of their body is a big part of why trans children have such high rates of suicide.
In any case though, if you’re worried about them being too young, why would you be making a stink about a medicine than exists to delay permanent changes in their body? We give it to cis children safely in the case of precocious puberty, it can be stopped and puberty will resume, and it stops a huge source of emotional pain for them.
Just because you don’t need it doesn’t mean that gender affirming care isn’t still healthcare.
this is just diet transphobia. it is very well established that these are safe and reversible, and as the other commenter notes there are a plethora of extremely good reasons to start early here (in part because they’re safe and reversible, but the changes associated with growing up either aren’t or are much more involved to reverse once you’ve gone through them)
Sports is inherently unfair. Biological advantages are the basis for global competition. If the goal is fairness in sports then why is no consideration directed at any other kind of advantage until a trans woman is involved?
Uh… it is. We have considerations taken into account for age, weight, and skill level, at various levels of sports. Yes, obviously there are biological advantages in sports, and that is a big part of the sport. That’s precisely why we separate men and women, BECAUSE of those advantages.
So for you to say there is no consideration given to those advantages until trans woman are involved is just flatly wrong. That’s the basis of this entire conversation, the fact that we do take that into account already.
So why is the discussion not how we can further categorize people then? You know, to account for the biological advantages?
Its not fair to short women that only tall women can compete in sprinting on an international scale. There’s nothing they could ever do to compete on that level. It’s not physically possible for them. So why is the Olympics not dividided into height categories? Why not categories based on wingspan in swimming? Why not categories based on muscle to fat ratio in lifting? Why not categories based on leg length in cycling? Why don’t we categorize any sport that requires prolonged deep breathing into lung capacity? Why don’t we measure any relative advantage causes by these things and measure everyone accordingly?
Look into how the special Olympics is measured such that anyone can compete. Anyone can, and their results take into consideration their relative handicaps and advantages.
Fairness in sports is not the point. Never has been. The point is “perfection of the human body”. How strong can can the strongest people possibly get? How fast can the fastest people possibly get? How high can the highest jump ever get?
Why is it currently impossible for 99.99% of cisgender women, no matter how much they train, to compete in a sporting event at an Olympic level? How is the inclusion of trans women fundamentally changing this process in any way?
You do realize trans women are women, right? You’re just tlaking about taking women out of women’s sports. Castor Semenya, several other black women have been told they are not woman enough to be treated as women. Do you think there’s any motivation behind that?
Is sports meant to be exclusionary? If so, who is women’s sports for? Upper middle class women from well off families? What about wealth disparity? If we add in wealth disparity the percentage of women who will ever be able to compete is even smaller. So what about poor women?
Why is the category for shooting divided by sex?
Why has there been significant discussion about excluding trans women from beauty competitions? Do you not understand the movement has nothing to do with fairness, and is just a conservative culture war talking point to spread hatred of trans women?
Do you not understand that by perpetuating this culture war talking point, you’re just proving conclusively that you do not see trans women as women and that you’re hypocritical for focusing solely on any advantage a trans woman has ignoring that every single olympic level athlete at this stage has massive biological advantages that already exclude 99.99% of women from ever competing at that level?
Trans women are women. We take hormones that destroy our muscle mass and cause significant physical impairment to our bodies. I’m not the incredible hulk, I’m not a massive testosterone machine, I have had GRS and I have no blood testosterone at all. I’ve been this way for nearly a decade. In any competition I would be utterly destroyed by even a teenage girl. Is it necessary to exclude me from participation? Am I not woman enough to compete, like Castor Semenya? Am I not who sports is for? Is sports only for cis boys and girls, is that the message you want to send to trans kids?
Then do we ban cis women who are tall or have a high bone density from women’s sports? Do we allow trans women who don’t have these advantages? Why single out trans people? If you judge that certain advantages are too much, why ban all trans people specifically?
This is it, exactly.
Every time I’ve gone and looked into it, the research seems to indicate that trans women who’ve been on HRT for a year or two do retain some advantages due to testosterone-fueled puberty, but those advantages they may retain are well within the bounds of what’s expected between cis women. In other words, sure, maybe a trans woman is taller than she’d be had she not gone through T-puberty, but there are cis women who are also tall, and we’re not banning them on that basis. The same goes for any other advantages they (trans women) retain.
We are banning them specifically because they gained that advantage by going through puberty as a gender they aren’t competing as. And none of those other women competitors had the ability to do that.
That is the difference. And I think that’s a fine reason to ban someone from competing (AT A HIGH LEVEL, NOT CHILDREN’S SPORTS).
