Comment by Glytch@lemmy.world on Stance on conflict

So we agree: both sides of this election support the ongoing genocide being committed by Israel.

do you want more genocide or less genocide?

Inb4 “I wAnT nO gEnOcIdE” like it’s some kind of clever gotcha response that shows anything but their whole white bougie kid politics having ass.

I want you to stop pretending that she’ll do anything to even slow it down. I encourage you to vote for her and Walz because it serves our country better than Trump and the couch fucker, but admit that the two parties’ positions on Palestine are materially the same. We can’t change anything until we acknowledge the problem.

Under Kamala I think we have the possibility of seeing a Netanyahu free Israel, with leadership making more sober decisions.

Genuine question: what makes you think that? Is it a vibes thing? I’ve been listening to her public statements and it seems to me like she won’t be changing from Biden’s policy. I want to think she’ll be better than Biden was on this issue (like she is on a number of issues), but so far I see no evidence of that.

You are huffing paint if you think a change of leadership will fix a genocidal ethnostate currently engaged in the most violent ethnic cleansing the region has seen in centuries.

Why would you think a regime change won’t solve the issue when you acknowledge the situation under the regime is unique over a span of centuries?

Because not stopping a roll towards a wall is exactly the same as hitting the fucking accelerator.

Your politics would see us Palestinians all massacred on the altar of “well the dems would have been the same anyways!”

They are being exterminated now by a Democrat.

More dead since before the Nakba. More homes destroyed and more refugees than 1948. And you want me to clap and cheer for the party responsible for 200k dead innocent people.

This is a second Nakba, somehow even worse, and you want me to vote for the party enabling it.

Yes, because I’m not a moron and know that if the alternative were to come to pass, we’d see the Israelis progress to building gas chambers.

Take your fake outrage and shut the fuck up. The only kind of person who fights this hard to insist there’s no difference is someone who has never lived the difference and who doesn’t want to listen to anyone who has.

If you think the solution to democratic enablement of Israel is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, West Bank, and Golan Heights on a silver platter have policy control over the situation instead, you are either a willing or unwitting zionist agent, and in both cases you need to do a lot less acting like you get to carry any torches about it and do a lot more listening to people who’s politics aren’t entirely informed by how they’re only in danger if the fascists run out of ethnics, queer folks, and “unruly women” to execute first.

My grandfather didn’t flee the first one for me to watch moghafleen like you throw the rest of us into the fires because doing literally the bare minimum to keep it from getting worse doesn’t make you feel high and mighty enough.

Read my second sentence again. Particularly the part where I say “I encourage you to vote for Harris and Walz”.

While bitching and moaning about “bUt DeMs SaMe!” to justify continuing to be of less than no help to harm reduction.

Palestine has become just the latest front in white bougie kids’ war against the idea that the democrats are in fact not the fucking same as the republicans and that being a whiney cynical cunt insisting otherwise doesn’t make you smarter than everyone who actually has to live the damned difference and fucking knows better.

Seems like the genocide is already accelerating, so this is also a false choice. Either way it will be more.

I’m not saying “don’t vote for Harris” nor am I saying “don’t vote at all”. I support Harris, but pretending she doesn’t support Israel’s genocide or she’ll somehow slow it down is just ignorant of reality.

We are watching the destruction of the Palestinian people in real time and the people able to stop it are entirely unwilling to care.

you are completely ignoring Trump’s track record vis a vis Israel and Palestine. He has been much more fanatical in his support of Israel than any other president, even other republican presidents. For example:

moved the American embassy to Jerusalem
has never once uttered the words “cease fire”, only called for Israel’s “victory”
has never lamented any Palestinian deaths at all
reversed US’s position on Israeli settlements in Palestine (which Biden has again reversed to the original position in accordance with international law)

Give me an answer other than “Trump is worse”. Of course he is.

This is about how Harris could be better. She could be pushing for sanctions on Israel. She could be saying she’ll stop supplying the genocide. She could acknowledge that the genocide is a genocide.

She does none of these things because she doesn’t care.

Yes, vote for her (I will be), but acknowledge that the lesser of two evils is still evil.

Give me an answer other than “Trump is worse”. Of course he is.

firstly, your comment above literally started with “Seems like the genocide is already accelerating, so this is also a false choice. Either way it will be more.” Now you say “of course he is worse” as if we’re all supposed to know you believe that. plenty of people on Lemmy don’t.

Secondly, when you only criticize one side just because you think the other side is too far gone, you are making the discussion biased against Harris.

which side is against it?

I want zero genocide

The Democrats want genocide

The Republicans want genocide

I want zero genocide

me too, but that’s not an option.

so, are you going to vote for more genocide, or less genocide?

Let’s put this in perspective. bibi and Isreal is committing Genocide. Genocide has happened and is still happening. Americans have provided weapons of war and continue to provide weapons of war to Isreal as they have all their allies. The only thing America has failed to do is pressure bibi to stop. Do they have that power? I wouldn’t know. Some people claim to know.

In 2024 we aren’t voting for genocide. We are voting for candidates all claiming to know the exact right thing to do on this particular issue. Will any of this result in turning back the clock on what’s been done? No. Should the united states president be able to midgate the continued conflict? Possibly.

I’m going to remind everyone again. America is not the world police. You don’t want them as the world police. You can continue your campaign against the democrats all you want but please. I beg you. Look at who your allies are in that fight. bibi himself would cum his pants to see the orange dictator take office.

Which side is less genocide?

Remember, The number of dead, The number of refugees, And the number of destroyed buildings, all outnumber what occured in 1948. By several times.

This is the worst ethnic cleansing the region has seen in centuries. Even Saddam racked up less kills when he was gassing Kurds.

There were more than 5 hundred thousand people killed in the Iran-Iraq war

You might have forgotten because that’s already 0,4 centuries ago

War is not the extermination of an ethnic group. Deaths on a battlefield are not dead children buried under rubble.

You are comparing the battle of the bulge with a death camp.

This is the worst ethnic cleansing the region has seen in centuries. Even Saddam racked up less kills when he was gassing Kurds.

The Anfal Campaign was what, 200,000 killed?

Unless the Palestinian death toll, already horrific, has quintupled, I don’t think your math checks out.

Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death9 to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip. A report from Feb 7, 2024, at the time when the direct death toll was 28 000, estimated that without a ceasefire there would be between 58 260 deaths (without an epidemic or escalation) and 85 750 deaths (if both occurred) by Aug 6, 2024.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

This was before Israel began cutting off water, fuel, and medicine to Jenin, as part of their effort to expand the conflict. It ignores the thousands of casualties in the West Bank as well, which will continue to increase as Israel escalates.

that’s not an option

Why?

because our two party and single choice voting systems suck. But it’s the world we live in and we have to do the best we can with it.

so if your only two options are more genocide or less genocide, which are you going to choose? And if your answer is “none of the above” remember that effectively counts as a half vote for more genocide.

Okay but it doesn’t seem like that’s a viable option right now

It is a viable option. There is nothing preventing the Democrats from opposing genocide

Biden could do so tomorrow. Harris could then continue that policy

yes and we should keep pressuring them to do so. But this post is about comparing Harris to Trump, and how they do not have the same policy. I’d much rather try to convince Harris to adjust her position than Trump

Within the confines of the law, your best chance at pressuring Harris to change her position is to very vocally demand the Democrats cease support of Israel immediately, and that if they don’t then you will not support or vote for them. What other leverage do you have over them?

That’s not what I meant and you know that.

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