Initially socialism, and then communism in the long run. The only sane approach is to have worker ownership of the means of production.
Is there an example in history where this has attempted and implemented as such and not devolved into straight up persecusion, authoritarianism, cult of personally or tens+ of millions dead? And general lower standards of living to most, outside the party or political class like the Politburo? Could not find any. The Nordics and Canada are capitalistic with some social services. They seem to have a good valance but that is only because the USA military protects them out of geopolitical interests.
I am all good with say, limiting wealth of the rich, they can be rich but not stupifyingly rich and some socialised healthcare and the like. Coming from a third world, I have seen that abolishing private property is just oppression with extra steps, overtime. Most 1st world people have no idea of what they are asking and of how it devolves, in practice.
In your mind, how would workers “own” the means of production? Shares? Votes?
Is there an example in history where this has attempted and implemented as such and not devolved into straight up persecusion, authoritarianism, cult of personally or tens+ of millions dead?
That’s literally every single example in the real world example of communist revolutions. Standard of living improves for the majority as people get jobs, education, food and housing as a right. It’s incredible that people continue to repeat these tropes that have been debunked many times without a hint of embarrassment.
Could not find any.
Then you obviously haven’t bothered actually looking.
The Nordics and Canada are capitalistic with some social services. They seem to have a good valance but that is only because the USA military protects them out of geopolitical interests.
Not only is this blatantly false, but the meager standard of living the working majority in these countries enjoys is built on brutal colonialism and exploitation of the global majority.
In your mind, how would workers “own” the means of production? Shares? Votes?
In my mind, the workers would own the means of production through a combination of state owned enterprise and cooperative ownership of the private businesses. This is not rocket science. How cooperatives and state owned enterprise work in practice is well documented.
They are tropes because they literally happened. How many millions died due to famines or ideological persecutions say, Russia, China or Khmer Rouge? Please, provide a number.
Are you going to claim that current China is not a surveillance State, on top of that? With property that can only be owned for 50 years and homeless outside main cities? I mean, I could go on and on, video does exist of this. The point is that I have looked. To say that some of these regimes did not have at least some positives is silly, simply put, the positives in most cases do not outweigh the oppressive, propaganda State negatives.
Dude, I lived in Canada, know people in the Nordics, I know what I am talking about. You are wrong. Saying it is “false” does not cancel reality. Most Canadians enjoy a standard of living higher than 90% of the rest of the world in the aggregate. I lived in a major city and got tired of the cosmopolitan living and moved a small city, I look into a river every morning. I am not rich, albeit a bit lucky.
In general, the Nordics have it better. You should go visit Iceland, albeit it is expensive, but at least you are not going to risk getting robbed as you would in many parts of Mexico or Honduras. Colonialism is a silly claim, all human beings, and most civilizations have done this since the beginning of time, just colonizing each other over resources. You think the while folk invented this? It has been done by all, often brutally. Did you think the Mongols, the British of the Muslims during the early Islamic conquests got where they get through hugs and kisses? Alexander the Great got to India by whispering sweet nothings into the armies they destroyed along the way? Surely. Africa and the Americas were killing each other all the time and had slaves before any white person got there. Who do you think sold black people to the Europeans? Other black people.
My point is that the Nordic countries can afford to have socialized services because they enjoy the protection of USA imperialistic or militaristic hegemony. Never said that was a good thing, nevertheless, that is just the current reality. They do not have to worry about paying for large standing armies because the USA would not allow it. Since it is simply not in their best geopolitical interest. Same reason why Costa Rica or Panama do not need large armies, either.
In a true Communist state, as in like what Stalin wanted and aimed for, there was no room for private enterprise. Mao and current China has their fingers into all so-called private companies. Not really private, really. What if your name is Jack Ma, and are a full blown billionare, and get a bit lippy in the wrong think, you just disappear for 3 months to be, straighten out. So, not sure if that is really “private.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64781986
Cooperatives operating in a capitalistic environment, is very different than one existing under a Marxist or Communistic one. I mean, I cannot believe that this has to be stated. So, no, your answer is as vague as every other communist/marxist/socialist/etc that I have honestly asked, who themselves usually throw all the tropes of some type of communist paradise that has never existed in the form they suggest, while ignoring major aspects of history, the human condition and how said humans actually work and exist because we are all very different people. With different abilities, and qualities and many do not like to play communism or Marxism. I mean, Marxist and more specifically Leninists do know this, otherwise, they would not have invented the underhanded concept of Vanguard parties in order to manipulate the populace in a particular direction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguardism
What is not rocket science is what has been done historically, and of how badly treated and persecuted people who did not want to LARP with their communist-minded citizens or who were found guilty of wrong-think. These stories can be found throughout most of the 20th century in Russia and Eastern Europe and, behind what we would call the iron curtain and China and elsewhere.
I was honestly asking a question, which you could have answered in good faith, rather than coming off defensively as if I had not done my homework. You do not know what I know, so you should perhaps not assume, friend. Keeps conversations better. Would you wager to try again?
And general lower standards of living to most, outside the party or political class like the Politburo?
Do you actually, literally believe that the standard of living was lower for regular people in the USSR (the world’s first spacefaring nation, at the time the second most powerful country in the world, a country that eliminated famines completely once they’d dealt with the consequences of WW2, a country where by the 80s, people were twice as likely as a modern American to take a vacation away from home) than for peasants in the Russian Empire?
Are you being deliberately dishonest or are you just completely ignorant about the topic in spite of speaking so authoritatively about it?
What “I” believe is irrelevant. History is the point. So yes, tens of millions died during Communism. If you are focusing on Russia, sure, let’s go there. First and foremost, during the later part of the 20th century until the Fall, Russian was essentially a corrupt, authoritarian State. This is widely known. Plus, I have old Russian friends who lived there, so I will certainly trust them over some possible ideologue on the internet. You know that living while you are concerned of being on the States radar over wrong think is not necessarily something that I would call a quality life. I have Romanian friends whose parents lived under the shadow of communist, oppressive propaganda and forced group think. Russia is not unique but they were one of the most forceful. One of the things that many pro-Communists never like to talk about was what happened to the people who society who did not want to LARP along. Generally they were re-educated or considered traitors or enemies of the State. Feel free to look it up.
Regarding vacations, makes sense that since you were seen like a cog in a machine, that for most, vacations, mandated by the State would be given generally, all at once and time off depended on a number of factors. https://www.rbth.com/history/334213-soviet-union-month-vacations Worth noting that the above is a Pro-Russian site, so there is bound to be some bias.
Found this person who claims that some type of vacations given to workers would be booked, group vacations. Not my idea of a vacation, however, if you ask me.
https://reddit.simo.sh/r/AskHistorians/comments/pejfni/i_am_an_average_soviet_citizen_who_wish_to_go_on/
So, no, more time off is not necessarily the only metric that should matter.
Secondly, millions died due to political persecutions, like in the Great Purge, at least 1.2+ million Kulaks, just to mention one. Their crime being only slightly better off plebs. On top of that millions of others died of famines, in order to get the USSR “going.” Same happen under Mao, in fact way more died under Mao as they too played the class game as to label citizens into different bins. They called them the 5 different black categories, partly borrowed from the Russian approach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Black_Categories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge https://allthatsinteresting.com/how-many-people-did-stalin-kill https://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/04/world/major-soviet-paper-says-20-million-died-as-victims-of-stalin.html https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2010/09/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310
The presumption that I would be dishonest is silly and reeks to bad faith. Do not just try to cherry pick a time period for what seems to be benefit. How many millions dead over governmental ideology shift does the US have? Also, would you not say that the standard of living in say, the USA was superior in the aggregate to Russia’s during the same time period, or would you deny that?
Friend the ignorant here seems to be you. Cheers.
