You are viewing a single thread.
View all comments View context
-6 points

I believe it helps to be able to identify bad faith actors. If you have never heard their arguments before then you run the risk of not realising its a bad faith argument. This could mean you end up taking them seriously.

permalink
report
parent
reply
8 points

Let me help you out:

There are NO sound arguments for racism, fascism etc.

None.

There is no point in listening to racists and fascists.

Ever.

permalink
report
parent
reply
1 point

Cool. Great. Now define whether something is racist or not.

permalink
report
parent
reply
1 point

Easy. Something is racist if it essentializes characteristics of a person or group, based on their skin colour or ethnic group; or if it makes derogatory assumptions about a cultural item/act/thing.

  • “Jews are greedy” = Racist statement

  • “Immigrants are violent” = Racist statement

  • “Asians are better at math” = Racist statement

  • “White people don’t season their food” = I don’t give a fuck personally (am white) but yes there is some level of racism in the statement

  • “Dreadlocks are dirty” = racist statement

  • “Israel is an genocidal state” = not a racist statement

  • “People native to Tibet, the Andese, and the Ethiopian highlands are better adapted to high altitudes” = not a racist statement

  • “white people have historically been more responsible for subjugating other races” = not a racist statement

Some things are worse than others, but the point isn’t to just shun anyone who says something bigoted. It’s to shun anyone who is bigoted and truly believes that they are correct so they won’t engage with arguments that they are presented. Or to shun centrists who argue for “finding a middle ground” between the bigoted position and the correct one.

I fell down the alt-right pipeline in highschool, and now I’m a nonbinary leftist landing somewhere between social democracy and anarcho-communism. I of all people have to believe in not just sending bigoted people to the gulag… But the trick is that no matter what, democratic platforms shouldn’t be given to those ideals. You shouldn’t be able to run on a platform of blocking trans healthcare, deporting a made up number of ““illegal immigrants”” (undocumented migrants), or fucking “being a dictator on day one”. And defending those acts also should be heavily looked down upon.

permalink
report
parent
reply
-3 points

but if you are lazy or dumb debater, it is quite easy to label anything with any negative word you pull out of your hat in order to avoid the discussion that is hard for you.

permalink
report
parent
reply
-1 points
*

Who said there was? Dont try to strawman this. You are missing the point. And your condescension is unwarranted.

No, there is no sound argument for racism, and when you hear an argument for it, you identify its nonsense and move on. But that doesn’t mean there are no sound arguments for other things you disagree with.

Frankly, anyone can point at something that is morally wrong and say it’s wrong. That doesn’t make YOU right. Thats just essentially virtue signalling.

I disagree with fascists and racists too. But im sure there is something else out there we disagree on, such as whether or not you should block people who disagree with you.

My point is that you can’t arrive at what is right without knowing what is wrong and you can’t know what is wrong if you block everyone who disagrees with you.

You also cant rule out a person having a good take just because they also have some bad takes.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

such as whether or not you should block people who disagree with you.

I don’t think anyone was making the argument to block everyone who disagrees with you. If someone wants to do a social intrigue game in DND I’m going to think that’s not the best tool for the job, but I’m not going to block them.

If someone’s like “women shouldn’t be allowed to vote” then that’s a whole different kind of disagreement.

My point is that you can’t arrive at what is right without knowing what is wrong and you can’t know what is wrong if you block everyone who disagrees with you.

I don’t know if that’s true? I don’t need to see every variation of racist argument to identify racism is bad. You don’t need to know the full set of possibilities to pick a good one. Like, you probably have reasonable interactions with dogs on the street and never considered going on all fours and aggressively pissing and howling before.

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points
*

This only applies though if the bigot or their apologist is willing to have an honest discussion with good intentions. The problem with tolerating them is that they do not have any respect for truth, or in having an honest discussion. Engaging with that is beyond pointless as the best it serves is to show people that already understand it to be bad that it is bad. And at worst it will confuse someone who doesn’t understand or reason well into siding with bigotry.

All this discussion of “well people should know and be able to reason” falls flat when you look at examples around the world where intolerant bigots were tolerated. The US and Germany are two examples I can think of off the top of my head. The US has a felon, fascist, wannabe dictator as one option and he has an honest chance of winning. Then in Germany they are having essentially a resurgence of the Nazi party in AfD and it’s been gaining traction, particularly in eastern states from what I’ve read.

Bigotry and hatred don’t need a platform. They do fine on their own. Giving them shelter only creates issues. You don’t need to see their arguments because their arguments don’t come from reason but from spite and they have no intention of fair engagement.

permalink
report
parent
reply
5 points

I think some of the confusion here might be that this comic is specifically referencing booting out bigots and their apologists.

if someone is willing to argue in bad faith (in this case, specifically bigots), there is no reason to listen to that or anything else they have to say since they’ve shown they are willing to argue in bad faith at all. I also think anyone who is an apologist of them is also not worth listening to because they are in bad faith by proxy.

that being said, it’s perfectly okay to have people arguing in good faith while coming to different conclusions. there can be disagreement and that is healthy as you’ve said.

permalink
report
parent
reply

Political Memes

!politicalmemes@lemmy.world

Create post

Welcome to politcal memes!

These are our rules:

Be civil

Jokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.

No misinformation

Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.

Posts should be memes

Random pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.

No bots, spam or self-promotion

Follow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.

Community stats

  • 12K

    Monthly active users

  • 2.8K

    Posts

  • 123K

    Comments