Interesting. Where would you move, out of curiosity?
If I could move anywhere? Probably the Netherlands. They have walkable cities, good job, good healthcare, a healthy respect for the environment. They have many of the policies I would like to see happen here, and they are the happiest nation on Earth if I recall.
In reality? I will probably be moving to Costa Rica, at the very least for when I retire. My girlfriend is there and the cost of living is a decent bit cheaper there. When we move depends on a lot of things, but it is currently our backup. We are pretty damn terrified of the authoritarian/fascist policies that are becoming popularized in the U.S., and we don’t want to be persecuted for being who we are. So if things get particularly bad we might just end up getting a greencard wedding is Costa Rica.
I wouldn’t really start that non-profit, because ultimately it would distract from legitimately good charities, but it does cross my mind now and then.
There is one charity like that which comes to mind to me. It’s called the Rainbow Railroad, and it’s for LGBTQ+ people who are trying to escape persecution, who want to move to a place where they will be safe.
I suspect you would not be a fan of it though.
So on a side note, one thing I’m confused about is that you think people who want to see drastic change in America, who perceive it in a negative light, you think they should move or be deported. Yet when it comes to cartels, you think people should fight to the death to get rid of cartels and corruption.
Why is it in one case the answer is deportation/moving but in the other case it is fighting to the death?
When you talk about people who harbor a negative association with the American flag, though, that’s far beyond a disagreement. You’re talking about domestic terrorists there.
It’s ultimately a disagreement, a huge one sure, but a disagreement. And it’s not domestic terrorism because that involves violence.
They’re absolutely not American at heart, so why would we allow them to live here?
Because the alternative is persecuting them for their beliefs, which is un-American and a 1st amendment violation.
These are people who are likely to commit mass murder at the drop of a hat
You have no evidence for that, but I would actually suspect it’s the opposite, or at least a similar crime rate as the rest.
And the reason for my suspicion is that most mass shootings are done by straight white men, and most domestic terrorism is right wing motivated. Neither of which aligns with the demographics that view the flag in a negative light. The nature of domestic terrorist attacks differs quite a bit between left vs right as well.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/pushed-extremes-domestic-terrorism-amid-polarization-and-protest
I imagine there’s probably less than a dozen such people nationwide
It’s considerably more than that.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/05/05/5-national-pride-and-shame/
From the first one, it would work out to roughly 30 million Americans who overall view the flag negatively. And that’s before you count the people who have a mixed view of it.
That’s the broadest acceptable spectrum of every religion in America
It doesn’t matter if it covers all religions because it’s generic, it’s still religious and forcing it upon children is forcing religion.
Bear in mind that we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from it.
It’s logically impossible to have one without the other. If the state has the ability to force you to partake in religion then we have no freedom of religion. They are one in the same.
What I meant was that it ultimately tells us to love our neighbors. That’s the root meaning behind it.
I don’t think that’s true. The meaning to mean quite clear is limited to this: By reciting the pledge you are promising loyalty to the state, its primary symbol (the flag). The last bit is about affirming the ideals of our country. The under god part of the ideals was in response to the red scare, the one nation indivisible in response to the civil war, etc.
It’s meant to be a patriotic, unifying/rallying cry. But it comes off as incredibly dystopian and creepy.
It doesn’t mention anything about our neighbors.
And to kinda bring up a new point, the Supreme Court had a ruling for Jehova’s Witnesses saying that their children couldn’t be forced to do the pledge because it constituted worship of a false idol, the flag.
And I agree with that ruling. People shouldn’t be forced to do the pledge. Forced speech is a violation of the 1st amendment.
If the government can force you to say something then we are missing a critical component of free speech. The same concept applies to freedom of religion/freedom from religion.
Part 2 of 2:
The nature of domestic terrorist attacks differs quite a bit between left vs right as well.
While that’s interesting, you’d need to be far outside the traditional political spectrum to think anything negative about the American flag.
Please understand that I suggest deportation because it’s by far and away the most compassionate approach, as what’s truly deserved is far more violent and lethal, but we can rise above that.
It’s considerably more than that.
Thank you for the links. It’s clear we’ve allowed the problem to fester for too long. We’ll see those numbers quickly return to a natural 100% “love it” if we enforce “love it or leave it”.
it’s still religious and forcing it upon children is forcing religion.
Um, no. We all have a natural relationship with God, and that has nothing to do with any specific religion. We can raise our children in our faith tradition, while educating them about how other denominations disagree on various topics, and allowing them to ultimately choose their own style of worship and details of belief.
It’s logically impossible to have one without the other. If the state has the ability to force you to partake in religion then we have no freedom of religion. They are one in the same.
The state doesn’t have that ability, and neither does anyone else. But if someone is opposed to God, then they’re opposed to American values, and they should be treated as such.
That’s not forcing anyone to partake in religion; it’s just acknowledging that we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values, and we’re not going to enforce any particular flavor of Christianity, nor are we even going to enforce that people practice Christianity at all, but you certainly must favor God because otherwise you favor Satan.
By reciting the pledge you are promising loyalty to the state
That’s wholly incorrect. We tend to harbor plenty of objections to our politicians, on both sides of the aisle. We fly our flags anyway because they’re our flags, not the politicians’ flags. Politicians are our employees.
It’s meant to be a patriotic, unifying/rallying cry. But it comes off as incredibly dystopian and creepy.
It’s meant to stand for the American people and American values. If you find that dystopian or creepy, I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?
Part 2 of 2:
I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
you’d need to be far outside the traditional political spectrum to think anything negative about the American flag.
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
as what’s truly deserved is far more violent and lethal
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
We’ll see those numbers quickly return to a natural 100% “love it” if we enforce “love it or leave it”.
And it would be immensely harmful to the country to do that. Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
Um, no. We all have a natural relationship with God
There is simply no evidence for that. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
it’s just acknowledging that we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values
That is objectively false.
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“As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion" ~ Treaty of Tripoli; initiated under President George Washington, 1796, signed into law by President John Adams, 1797, ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797, published in full in all 13 states, with no record of complaint or dissent.
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“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
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“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
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“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
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“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”– James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795
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“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 .
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“He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln
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“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States
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“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible…Some books on Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist.” -Benjamin Franklin, “Toward the Mystery” (autobiography)
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"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice…he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers…Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did. -Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799
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“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”- Thomas Jefferson
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“There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”- Thomas Jefferson
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“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”- Ben Franklin7. “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”- Ben Franklin
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“In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it.”- Ben Franklin
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“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it”- John Adams
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“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”- Thomas Paine
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“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”-Thomas Paine
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“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”- Thomas Paine
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“The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.”- Abraham Lincoln
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“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”- James Madison
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“In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” ― James Madison
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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. " ~ Thomas Jefferson
That’s wholly incorrect.
It’s a pledge (promise) of allegiance (loyalty). My description of the pledge is accurate.
If you find that dystopian or creepy
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?
That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
Do these work?
I’ll pause there for now.
Unpause, part 1 of 2:
I paused before, so here’s the remainder of my reply:
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
You have to be actively seeking out negativity, because it’s nearly impossible to find unless you go looking for it.
The personality type of leftists (admittedly I’m painting with a very broad brush here) is the type of person who feels comfortable when they’re criticizing things. I think it makes them feel smart, or better than whatever (or whoever) they’re criticizing, or maybe the motivation varies from person to person, but whatever the reason, leftists typically seem to find comfort in criticism.
One of the most visible manifestations of this preference is the rise of CRT, which is like a cancer spreading to all of our institutions. CRT is a part of Critical Theory, the broad set of philosophical works lauded by leftists for attempting to “deconstruct” western civilization. To a normal conservative American, the very fact that Critical Theory (CRT included) has the word “critical” in its name indicates that it’s an evil way of thinking, seeking out negative thoughts instead of praising God. The fact that the theory lives up to its disturbing name, and actually uses criticism as its core methodology, only goes to show that this is one of those cases in which it’s valid to judge a book by its cover.
To normal conservative Americans, we know America is blessed because our Lord is God. Our history is chock full of divine providence. When you criticize America, you criticize God. Criticism is an evil way of thinking. That’s not to say we’re perfect, at all, because we’re all sinners. But as we each repent for our individual sins, seek continued favor from God, and work to do God’s will on earth as it’s done in heaven, we know that our fate is in God’s hands, so we choose faith and love where leftist criticizers choose discontent, anger, and hatred.
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
I certainly wasn’t suggesting lethal injection. I was looking back to our nation’s early practices. Someone might get tarred and feathered if he deserved it, while someone else might be drawn and quartered. We burned witches at the stake. These are the principles of our nation, and our early history that gained us favor with God. So it’s certainly not antithetical to the principles of our nation at all. But it is antithetical to God’s will for us to practice forgiveness, which is why I instead call for compassionate deportation.
Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
I do agree with you on this, believe it or not. I enjoy this discussion because I enjoy the free interplay of beliefs. I wouldn’t want you silenced.
But at the same time, I believe there’s a limit to how far it extends. Just as you can’t legally yell “fire” in a crowded theater (remember crowded theaters?), I see the toxic hatred for America as being principally unwelcome.
And I’m not really advocating for the government to do anything, other than say “if somebody hates America then we decline to offer that person any police protection for their natural rights.”
There is simply no evidence for [us each having a natural relationship with God]. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
There’s an abundance of evidence for it, everywhere I look. Our Creator put us here for a purpose. To ignore that fact is evil. We are responsible for raising children to become moral, and that’s impossible without a firm reliance on Christ. Again, you’re either with God or you’re with Satan. To raise a child without emphasizing God’s role in everything we do and think is to raise that child as an unknowing agent of the Beast.
Unpause, part 2 of 2:
[A list of twenty-two, count 'em twenty two quotes meant to demonstrate that it’s objectively false to claim that “we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values”]
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded. This conversation is already so long and unwieldy that there’s no way I’m going to address each of these. Suffice it to say that you’re wrong about this, and a suitable reply would be book length. And I’m not talking about a small or medium-sized book.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives. We told them what they wanted to hear, to get them to agree. So goes international treaties. They’re rhetoric devised to achieve political goals, and they mean nothing beyond that. Yes, we assured Muslims that our government is not founded on Christianity, and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Each of these quotes you offered either has a similarly simple rebuttal, or is actually correct without implying what you think it implies. Some of them are taken out of important context. I’ll leave it at that.
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
Listen, we agree that North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany are all bad countries, and we wouldn’t want to imitate them. So let’s at least take a moment to appreciate our agreement.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong. Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
The elephant in the room is that the US is at heart nothing whatsoever like any other country, including the ethnostates of North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany. We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
[Replying to “I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?”] That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
I hit the 5000 character limit! I thought that had been abolished, since we’ve both been writing some seriously long replies. I’ll split my reply in two.
Part 1 of 2:
Probably the Netherlands.
Here’s what comes to mind when I hear about the Netherlands:
- I like what little I know of the Dutch language, and I’d like to become fluent someday. It’s a nice language.
- They’ve suffered a massive influx of Moroccan immigrants since the 1970s, and those immigrants commit crimes at five times the rate of native Dutch. Source, see table 1.7 on page 17. (Sound familiar?)
- As if that wasn’t bad enough, their liberal drug policies turned the place into a drug infested hell-hole. Indeed quite a few US States have been imitating their idiotic legalization of marijuana, and I’m blessed not to live in any of them, but when I drive through them I see the visible impacts: litter, graffiti, and the stench of marijuana everywhere. And I avoid urban areas, so I can’t even imagine how much worse it must be in the cities. I guess you got your wish on that one.
That being said, I’m not trying to bash a country you like, and I’m sure you may be happy there even if I wouldn’t be. I was only offering my perspective as a point of contrast.
and we don’t want to be persecuted for being who we are
If you don’t mind my asking, who are you (broadly speaking)? Do you just mean that you favor leftist political perspectives?
There is one charity like that which comes to mind to me. It’s called the Rainbow Railroad, and it’s for LGBTQ+ people who are trying to escape persecution, who want to move to a place where they will be safe.
Wow, that’s remarkably close to my idea. Thank you! I’d rather help them turn to Christ and straighten out their act, instead of paying to help them to move away, but I’m impressed how similar it is to my idea.
It’s ultimately a disagreement, a huge one sure, but a disagreement. And it’s not domestic terrorism because that involves violence.
You could reduce every criminal perspective to a disagreement with well-adjusted society. Someone who hates a country simply doesn’t belong in that country, whether it’s the US or anywhere else.
Such a person may not have committed any violence yet, but if they hate Americans and the American principles we stand for, then it’s only a matter of time before they do commit violence.
I honestly find it unfathomable that anyone could associate anything negative with the American flag of all things. I mean, across the world it’s a symbol of freedom, but especially here at home, everywhere you look you see American flags because we all love our country.
We can have criticisms, sure — like any conservative, I don’t much like Biden, for example — but it’s not a flag of the White House or Congress; it’s the flag of We the People.
I’ll split my reply in two.
No worries, I understand. I had to create a kbin account because lemmy.world was struggling so much to keep track of this mess of a thread.
Here’s what comes to mind when I hear about the Netherlands:
I think what is most telling about the statistics you bring up is that even with those problems the Netherlands still has a homicide rate 11 times lower than the U.S. (0.6 vs 6.8)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
A literal “drug infested hell-hole” as you call it is significantly safer of a place to live. If that isn’t a poignant example of what a terrible state the U.S. is in then I don’t know what is.
If you don’t mind my asking, who are you (broadly speaking)? Do you just mean that you favor leftist political perspectives?
My girlfriend and I are both leftists, bisexual, and I am an atheist. All three demographics that have been historically persecuted under authoritarian states. I intend to be living safely elsewhere if/when the death penalty starts getting handed out for such non-crimes.
You could reduce every criminal perspective to a disagreement with well-adjusted society.
You’ve moved the goal posts to criminal perspective.
Such a person may not have committed any violence yet, but if they hate Americans and the American principles we stand for, then it’s only a matter of time before they do commit violence.
You do not have evidence for this.
I honestly find it unfathomable that anyone could associate anything negative with the American flag of all things.
Like I said in the other thread, ‘the american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.’
I mean, across the world it’s a symbol of freedom
Across the world is is also a symbol of imperialism, oil wars, subversion of democracy, etc. We’ve invaded dozens of countries around the world, and that legacy endures. He’ll, we’ve even firebombed our own citizens in their own neighborhoods. That history is what people think about when they see the flag.
I had to create a kbin account because lemmy.world was struggling so much to keep track of this mess of a thread.
Welcome to kbin! I considered creating a lemmy.world account, but thought I’d give it a day or two to see if it finally sync’d.
Note kbin has a bug: as soon as this conversation spills over to a second page, the notifications to page 2 and beyond will be broken links. You’ll have to search for the text in the notification to find the relevant reply. It’s a known bug.
This thread is quite a mess here too. I considered creating a new magazine just to break this conversation out into a series of new conversations, but that seems excessive. I’m not sure of the best solution.
A literal “drug infested hell-hole” as you call it is significantly safer of a place to live. If that isn’t a poignant example of what a terrible state the U.S. is in then I don’t know what is.
It only seems terrible if you measure according to un-American values. Our American perspective is well captured by the famous Ben Franklin quote:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Our culture has always been a bit dangerous because we’re a free people. We carry firearms to defend ourselves, and we use them as needed. Yes, that results in deaths, and we agree that deaths are undesirable, but as an American I hold liberty as being 100x more important than safety.
My girlfriend and I are both leftists, bisexual, and I am an atheist.
Earlier in our conversation I thought you were a Christian, because of what you said about idolatry. But I find it completely believable that you’re an atheist, because as we dug into the topic, you exhibited a complete lack of understanding of what idolatry is all about.
You are not “bisexual” if you’re a man with a girlfriend, unless you cheat on her. You may experience evil temptations to sin, but indeed we all do. The nature of our temptations varies according to our weaknesses, but we’re all tempted. If you turn to Christ, you’ll be able to pray to be shielded from your temptations, and prayer works.
I intend to be living safely elsewhere if/when the death penalty starts getting handed out for such non-crimes.
I find this beyond ridiculous. I completely support your moving to a place where you’d fit in better, and you’d be happier, as we’ve already established — but the US is so left of center that there’s no way anything like this could happen here. Death penalty for being leftist, bisexual, and/or atheist? In the US? Are you joking?
You’ve moved the goal posts to criminal perspective.
Not really. I was making a point that it’s not a matter of silencing an alternative viewpoint when that viewpoint is essentially pro-criminal.
You do not have evidence for [the idea that people who hate America and Americans are apt to commit violence].
True, but that only reflects the fact that I don’t make a habit of compiling evidence to support my points in future discussions. But I don’t see how you could disagree with this. People who love express love towards those who they love; people who hate express hatred towards those who they hate.
Across the world is is also a symbol of [a list of bad stuff]. That history is what people think about when they see the flag.
I’m sure that’s true of some people. Like anything, it is what you make of it. But you need to cherry-pick your list of bad things from a vast sea of lovable good things. I’m not trying to pretend that we’re perfect, but why would you want to focus on the tiny number of negative things instead of giving glory to God and focusing on all His copious blessings? Don’t you find it unbearably depressing to maintain such an irrationally negative disposition?
