Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.

“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.

“whatabout America” - “nooo you can’t just call me out on hypocrisy, it makes me look bad”

Whataboutism is literally a logical fallacy. We are talking about Russia, so talk about Russia.

You have no right to judge someone for what you yourself are guilty of.

guess we are all fucked then, all world powers are guilty of vile shit

What are they guilty of?

Hawkish imperialism, I guess.

(to be very explicit, I have no love for either)

Accusation of whataboutism is just a hiding place for hypocrites.

Pointing out supposed hypocrites is just a hiding place for people uninterested in actual ideas.

Discussion is furthered by pointing out contradictions in positions. Hypocrisy is one of these contradictions.

So, if you’re a US citizen, you can’t say anything bad about the Nazis, because the US has done genocides, too… Is that seriously your argument?

That’s a pretty poor takeaway I would say. The argument would be that the Nazis took direct inspiration from the early US idea of Manifest Destiny and the dealings with Native Americans. That in turn should give people reason to think about how to change their own society and how to make the world better, instead of handwaving it away by saying, ‘Nazi genocide was worse, why are you bringing up the US?’

Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy. There are historical, political, social, and economic reasons things happen, and sometimes it pays to put things in context. Limiting the discussion to the thing happening NOW and only NOW doesn’t allow for a better understanding of the events.

Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing, especially if it’s pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist. You can see based on past events such as the war on terror and endless drone striking of civilians how governments could expect that to be the standard way of operating. That doesn’t make it right, only that military intervention has been and continues to be legitimised politically by the international community.

Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy

Lol

Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing, especially if it’s pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist.

I didn’t realize Ukraine was the most powerful nation to ever exist.

Bruh are you being willfully ignorant about that last point or do you legitimately believe I was saying Ukraine is the most powerful nation to ever exist?

You are implying that this war is somehow orchestrated by the United States, since you are whatabouting that way.

The United States is not a belligerent here. Ukraine is the one getting invaded, and Russia is doing the invading - that is the situation. Every time you whatabout to the US you imply that Ukrainians have no agency and no rights to decide for themselves or defend themselves, or are somehow under the control of Joe Biden or some shit (hint: they aren’t - polling in Ukraine is very clear that a large majority want to keep fighting until Russia is gone from their country).

So yeah, “bruh”, I’m pointing out that when we talk about Russia and Ukraine, let’s talk about Russia and Ukraine. If you want to talk about the wider geostrategic implications of the USA, Europe, NATO, and various other nations providing aid to Ukraine, let’s dance:

I suppose your moral grounds aren’t shaken by Russia seeking help in North Korea and Iran to continue killing Ukrainian civilians? That is an actual whatabout.

Or perhaps that NATO and the EU are voluntary alliances that nations are free to leave at any moment (and don’t want in the case of NATO because of Russian aggression). Very nice, “bruh”.

You trolls are so predictable.

The person you replied to, saying whataboutism is a literal fallacy, brought up the fact that whenever anyone criticises the US in relation to current events it gets dismissed as whataboutism. I was making a point that hypocrisy in regards to the US, which is the most powerful nation in the world, helps no one, and only hinders the ability for governments to operate.

I’m not saying Ukrainians have no agency, although they are indebted to the west now, I am saying that the US is using Ukraine and spinning it as a moral good. The fact that it aligns with what the Ukrainian government wants is not necessary.

I don’t support killing civilians. I don’t support killing conscripted people. I don’t support killing volunteers who joined because they were struggling in a system that is designed to entice the poor to fight. I don’t even support killing those who joined because their mind is warped to hyper patriotism by propaganda due to the system they live in. I would rather see peace talks, collaboration in demining and rebuilding, and genuine interest in what the people of the region want. That Russia is seeking support is not surprising seeing the west supporting Ukraine, that doesn’t make it right, that just makes it predictable.

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Zelensky dismisses compromise with Putin, pointing to Prigozhin’s death(www.cnn.com)

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