Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.
As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.
“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.
Withdrawing troops, returning stolen land, children, prisoners and paying for damages… thats all i would accept. Nothing less.
A ‘Treaty of Versailles’ type solution is not a good idea for durable peace though, harsh reparations, despite any sense they might be ‘fair’, seldom lead to both countries returning to be prosperous democratic countries (and to be clear, neither is a capitulation by Ukraine - that would be seen by Putin as locking in its current gains, with no real incentive not to try again for more despite what the treaty might say).
The best outcome for everyone is if Russia ends up being a genuinely pluralistic democracy (i.e. anyone in Russia can have political views, and the public selects its leadership in free and fair elections). Then Ukraine can normalise relations with Russia, and Russia stops being a threat to democratic institutions across the world as a whole.
I think the best way of thinking about it is not that Ukraine has a Russia problem, but rather that Ukraine and Russia have an oligarch problem (with Putin chief amongst them). Therefore, in a fair world, the oligarchs, and not the Russian people, would pay. It is true that Russians (and indeed some Ukrainians in occupied regions) have been radicalised by the oligarchs, so some kind of deradicalisation would be needed even if the oligarchs disappeared.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term. Shorter term solutions could include a negotiated end to hostilities coupled with agreements for Ukraine to join a defensive alliance that the oligarchs wouldn’t consider provoking - which could be followed up by a carrot approach to easing sanctions in exchange for progressive movements towards genuine Russian democracy. This might give oligarchs enough push to take off ramps to cash in what they have plundered already, and slowly be replaced by less corrupt alternatives going forward.
Recovery from oligarchy for Russia might also by costly for Russia though - essential assets plundered from the USSR are now in private hands through crony capitalism; the best solution would be for many of the major ones to go back to or be rebuilt under state ownership, under genuine democratic leadership. But that is likely easier said than done given the state of Russia.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term.
This may be true but the negotiations are with a dictator. It’s not like Putin is going to step down so that the problem is resolved peacefully.
Yep. The only way to make progress on that front is to serve Putin some polonium tea…
Socialism worked in Russia: it dragged hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence farming and turned the USSR into an economic powerhouse. Of course, the collapse of the USSR showed the failings of an aggressively socialist state, but the funny thing is that China already has the solution: a market-based economy with strong state control. Putin doesn’t dare piss off the oligarchs though, so we’re stuck with this crony bullshit.
| Socialism worked in Russia:
Bullshit. Prosperity advanced much more in the west than in the Soviet Union, or anywhere in the soviet bloc. Corruption was rampant. Lying was rampant. People were miserable. Cultural genocide was the name of the game. Subjugated people hated it, and have fared significantly better since getting out. The only people who seem to be nostalgic about the USSR is the Russians, because they lost the ability to benefit from the slave labor of conquered vassal states.
Yeah China had the answer. 🙄
Oppression of ethnic minorities, complete disregard for culture and individualism, zero tolerance for criticism and challenge, absolutely authority by a select few to do as they please.
Yeah that’s fucking tankie logic for you. Fuck off bootlicker. We don’t want authoritative commie dictatorships. If you want it, FUCKING MOVE THERE.
Ukraine itself is not a “genuinely pluralistic democracy” despite appearances, it’s almost as corrupt and authoritarian as Russia.
It’s not the case where only Russia has to become more democratic cause democracies usually don’t fight each other.
But for Russia to stop being a threat it’s sufficient to just lose this war finally. It won’t recover its ability to attack anyone anytime soon, and when it will, the process of recovery itself is going to naturally ensure that it’s not interested in attacking Ukraine.
So yes, you are right about oligarchs and the general structure of the societies.
Essential assets you are talking about are what exactly? If you mean factories and plants, then actual equipment in most of them was obsolete even in 1991, and through the 90s and 00s has mostly been scrapped.
There are some remaining and even functioning, yes, but whether state ownership is going to prevent those from slowly crumbling due to growing obsolescence, irrelevance and lack of expertise, I’m not sure.
Basically industrial capacities are something to be created from scratch mostly.
But for Russia to stop being a threat it’s sufficient to just lose this war finally
What would be the definition of “losing” in this case? Countries tend use all the weapons at their disposal in order not to “lose”, in the case of Russia that would include its nuclear arsenal.
Sounds like a better outcome for everyone would be for Russia to get a civil war, and just “forget” about Ukraine.
And Russia Surrenders a 10km deep strip of its own land around Ukraine to act as a DMZ.
Eastern European countries love their “macho” leaders. Putin has been doing the whole shtick since forever and Zelensky started it too since 2022. Fucking hate this shit.
Well, it sometimes pays off. You can see how Pashinyan is regarded as opposed to Zelensky or literally anyone not as miserable. Looking weak is bad. Humans are still apes. And politicians in some sense are even more apes than the general population - they mostly participate in some free for all without any moral boundaries, which is an environment more macho-friendly than any other.
I mostly meant that people calling for Ukrainian offensive don’t quite feel that it’s not a movie, most of the soldiers are mobilized men, and Ukraine has already tried a few times. Turns out it’s not as cheap as one would have thought.
They likely want to stockpile weapons, train people better (especially commanders, since their recent attempts were just as Soviet-styled as what Russia does), make preparations. Maybe wait for something unexpected happening for Russia leading to it being distracted.
Or maybe they want to wait until the terrain freezes, so that it would be easier to push. Or the other way around - due to Russian problems in logistics, they want to push in the shortest possible window before frosts, so that territory taken would be easier to hold. I dunno, I’m not a military expert.
Democratic leadership hasn’t really done much for Ukraine. The Russians still have Bakhmut (their big gain from last winter). Almost the entirety of the Ukrainian counteroffensive has been dedicated to an area of land less than twenty kilometers across. Meanwhile, Russian forces are massing North of Kupyansk and Ukrainian supplies are drained.
The West doesn’t seem to really care about Ukraine - while Russia has been able to bring their economy into war footing in about a year, the West is happy to dig around and play accounting tricks to scrounge up what they can. The recent shipment of ATACMS missiles was, well…
“A surprising discovery could also ease the administration’s choice to send the weapons: The U.S. has found it has more ATACMS in its inventory than originally assessed.”
That’s what we’re stuck with? Hundreds of billions of dollars down the drain and aid is only being sent because they miscounted inventory?
We’ll see. Ukraine is still regaining land, albeit slowly. In some moments - rather fast and cheap even.
But also yes, the Russian forces have learned something.
Fuck you and tell your handler to go fuck themselves as well.
We in the West didn’t start this war. Ukraine didn’t start this war. RUSSIA STARTED THIS WAR.
Russia started it, Russia is responsible for all the death, destruction and misery going on.
We in the West are supporting Ukraine. We care about Ukraine and we want it to be free.
FUCK PUTIN & FUCK YOU!
You can put that in your filthy tankie report back to your degenerate masters.
You tankies are filthy parasites.
In what fantasy land do you think this is remotely achievable? Seriously? Do the lives of Ukrainians fighting and being caught in this conflict mean this little to you, that you are willing to accept continuation of fighting?
Ukraine surrendering is evidently not happening either. Given that Russia is indisputably in the wrong, maybe that’s the side we should put pressure on. Just a thought.
Put pressure we do, rest assured.
But, just objectively, what’s the endgame here? I saw a lot of people shit on Russian opposition for not stopping Putin. But, what can Ukraine and the entire world that supports it do? Russian state’s position is simple, it wants Donbas and Luhansk IN Ukraine (=take over it) or there would not be Ukraine at all. What’s the move here? Just supplying Ukraine with weapons won’t do. Accepting Ukraine into NATO is impossible. Going all NATO against Russia is suicidal. Real talk, get some ideas, and quick, on how to get more troops on Ukrainian soil, and make them real. The comments just shitting on Russia and chanting the same words on twitter won’t help - we’ve tried already.
It’s going to happen eventually, as they’re going to run out of recruits before the Russians do. This is like playing a game of chess to the bitter end, only the pieces are real human beings. Hundreds of thousands of them.
Of course, it’s a grad user saying this bullshit. The end of fighting means Ruzzia has won. They captured territory, killed tens of thousands, raped women and children alike and you want them to get away with it. It’s not about peace, because Ruzzia will never want piece. All it wants is subjugation of those they deem inferior. This conflict wont end if you end fighting. They will simply regroup and attack in a few years again. If you think ending the fight will end the war you are fucking delusional.
When you make an emotional plea like that, not based in reality, I think of when I was living with my aunt and uncle, and my aunt was so upset I was angering my uncle by not giving in to him.
He was going to abuse us regardless of what we did, I’d been in the situation for a few years by then and saw the patterns, and when you’re in that situation and understand the history of how that individual acts, you don’t fling yourself at the abuser’s feet once again…you fight.
I fought and got free. Got bruises and my hair ripped out of my head for it…but I got out. My aunt put up with a few more years of abuse because she wasn’t willing to put up with that bit, the dangerous bit when he popped off when someone defied him.
The situation in Ukraine is (writ large of course) similar to the dynamics of what goes on in an abusive home. The stakes are higher–more lives lost–but the dynamics underneath are still human dynamics. Which needs to be understood when it comes to negotiation and “civility” and such. It all comes back to the nature of the human animal.
You have a lying abuser at top (Russia) who tries to divert attention by tugging on heartstrings with pretty words while they are placing the blame for the war on the victims who “just won’t stop fighting–don’t they want to stop getting hurt?” as if fighting someone who is already hurting you is abusive, as if fighting back against them is irrational.
You don’t play around with idealism with these people, because they’ve already shown they are not willing to hold up their side of that social contract. (Although they are cunning and know using it on YOU might get you to do things against your own interest.) It’s NOT a given that stopping fighting will stop the loss of lives, that the abusers will keep their word once they’ve given it–with the Wagner dude as an example, who stopped what he was doing presumably because he was given promises if he did stop, then was blown up in an airplane shortly after.
Being civil only works if the other person is also being civil. When they’re not, other methods of dealing with a threat have to be taken. In an individual home, like my situation, I was lucky enough that simply leaving was enough. It was wildly “uncivil”–everyone gets super upset when you say you ran away from home or don’t talk to family…but it was effective to change the situation I was in. I didn’t need to be violent myself, just physically remove myself.
Nations, unfortunately, can’t pick up their borders and walk away to a place where their neighbors can’t reach them, they are by their nature very land-bound. So you get war instead, when civility–diplomacy–doesn’t get the result needed. (Just like talking to my uncle wouldn’t stop him from doing things, it’d only cause more trouble because he’d get even angrier that you’re “back talking” and not giving in.)
BTW, I’m not really responding to this guy, I doubt they’ll read or understand what I’m saying as the wringing fingers appeasement is an emotional ploy meant to get people to stop thinking and start crying inside.
Even if he’s real I’d be surprised if he understood. My aunt never did understand my point when I tried to explain what was wrong in our situation. There’s a reason it takes X amount of years and X amount of tries for abused spouses to get free.
I hope this is interesting enough for lurkers, though.
wringing fingers appeasement is an emotional ploy meant to get people to stop thinking and start crying inside.
Do you think it was acceptable for Texas to fight a war of independence against Mexico to join the U.S.?
If so, why isn’t it acceptable for the Donbas to fight a war of independence against Ukraine to join Russia?
Maybe they do care? Maybe they realize agreeing to terms that give land to Russia means they will be back to take more?
How? Ukraine’s made like a few square kilometers of progress with hundreds of billions of dollars of funding while Russia has just fallen back from their low ground territorial gains to the more easily defensible high ground.
What leverage does Ukraine even have for those demands?
Russia’s monetary system is in collapse and its economy is in free fall… the war took up 45% of its budget last year, its foreign exchange reserves have long since run dry and its first defensive line is slowly crumbling.
If it ends up being a war of endurance, Russia’s going to be in a far worse position in a year than they are now.
Russia’s manufacturing PMI is at, what, 55.9 this month? In fact, the Russian Bank is literally worried about higher than expected inflation because their economic output has been too high.
And of course, by slowly crumbling you mean that one salient near Robotyne? The one that’s known to be in a region of low ground surrounded by defences on high ground? That line?
Fact is, so long as India can keep buying Russian oil at whatever price OPEC dictates, Russia can keep financing the war. A lot of Russian industries can function entirely domestically (and thus don’t really stress foreign exchange reserves) - the main limiting factor I’d expect is high-tech electronics coming from India and China. Russia’s war economy has been remarkably resilient given the circumstances.
The reason for those small gains instead of hard ones is largely air support. The fighting on the ground is very reminiscent of world war I. That is not a good thing. They may seem like modest gains but in terms of that type of warfare they are pretty huge gains. The problem is that without air support it is going to be a long hard battle.
All that said, it is Ukraine’s territory. Russia could pack up and leave at any time.
How is Ukraine ever going to get air superiority? The West is basically trickle-feeding then equipment.
Okay then the war would go on and on until your government collapsed. A peace agreement is actually good here given that they just showed they were unable to reclaim much land with their counter offensive.
They’ve shown no such thing. Stop believing everything you hear in the media.
Russia is a terrorist country. Terrorists can’t be negotiated with. #SlavaUkraini
Russia can’t be accepted back into the international community until Putin is in a jail cell or in the ground.
While I’d like to believe this, if Putin comes to some peaceful agreement with Ukraine, the international community will just wait until people are distracted by the next big news story and then let Putin back in.
I’d rather be cynical and happily surprised than optimistic and disappointed.
Actually likely not, he’s been building international relations similarly to the Russian criminal code of behavior, and while it’s sad that even Americans and Europeans would consider this kinda acceptable, now he’s shown himself to be weak and humiliated. In other words, of the lower caste, and simply said, a pidor.
So no, he won’t be let back in. But some other (in appearances mostly, not in essence) government in Russia may.
“my genociders are good, your genociders are bad”. Whataboutism at its best. Lovely.
I mean, by that logic we might as well dump everyone who’s started a major land war recently into the ground.
Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan… ah fuck, eh?
US is still there though, being at the source of the death of 4.5 Millions humans since 2003! (washington post article).
Most of those actual deaths were Muslims killing Muslims. Deaths caused by United States soldiers are comparatively low.
For example, the Iraqi body count website tracks 210,000 civilians killed between 2003 and 2020.
According to your article, it cites US-led wars in countries such as Pakistan, Libya, Yemen and Syria. However, the United States did not launch a war in any of those countries and certainly did not fight a war in Pakistan which is a US ally.
The Washington Post article as well as research from Brown University has Lucy affiliated anyone who has died outside of the expected peacetime death rate in any country in Africa in the Middle East to be attributable to the United States which is, frankly completely unfair. ISIL aka the Islamic State for instance killed tens of thousands of people, yet those deaths are attributed to the United States. Which is completely crazy!
While I was completely against the 2003 Iraq war, and even March and protest against it, the truth of the matter is that Saddam was a complete bastard, the bath is party were fascist, and destroying them created enormous power vacuum which resulted in chaos death and destruction. However, this was probably an inevitability Saddam wasn’t going to last forever and had no system of governance to transfer leadership to someone else. The Middle East has been well known for centuries as a chaotic and violent region of the world and Sunni and Shiite Muslims have been at war with each other since time immemorial.
I would understand if at least 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel would be comprised of western volunteers talking about terrorists and no negotiations.
But that is not a thing. So looks a bit ballsy, cause one would think that in a rather apocalyptic war on Ukraine’s soil, after they’ve reclaimed large swathes of territory, they’d be interested in some reduction of monthly casualties and rebuilding various capacities on that territory. Which a ceasefire would provide.
I mean, even if you are right, you are eagerly advocating for spending mobilized Ukrainian lives on a costly offensive.
what a ceasefire would provide
Like the 2014 ceasefire? All it does is give Russia the opportunity to retrench and dig in. When the Ukrainians ask for a ceasefire, then I’ll support one.
Like every ceasefire.
I suppose right now Ukraine just wants some better guarantees while it has a strong negotiating position.
So that it takes some effort from Putin to even be heard.
Or maybe what Zelensky says is what he means, you can’t negotiate with a pathological liar (just like a few of Ukraine’s allies, though) who doesn’t know how to lose with dignity. Be it a person or a whole elite of some country, like Russia. I mean, emotionally I’ve met some and I’d agree. Just don’t know what it is rationally.
I’m only repeating what Ukrainians say. They know any concession with ruzzian terrorists now will only lead to ruzzian terrorists regrouping and reloading to perfom more genocide in a few months/years all over again. The fascist moscow regime needs to be stopped NOW.
The word “genocide” means something else (which, in case of Turkey and China and even Yazidis in Syria, most of the world has problems recognizing).
Yes, but Ukrainians need to regroup too.
I would understand if at least 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel would be comprised of western volunteers talking about terrorists and no negotiations.
Now do Russia. There must be more western volunteers on that side, I take it?
Foundations of geopolitics? Fuck that, more war. More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
I genuinely can’t tell if you are saying this ironically considering you are all over this thread defending Russia’s invasion.
Slava Ukraini was literally the battle cry of the OUN, which collaborated in the holocaust. Find a different motto.
Putler? But wouldn’t that make you like him if he was like Hitler? Are you sure you support Ukraine?
“ahhhhhh splat” is the current warcry of the woefully unprepared orcs getting slaughtered in a war that could end today. maybe you guys could at least come up with something original before winding up as compost?
as expected tankies and brain-dead conservatives take issue with the fact I’m mocking the vatniks out there being converted into soil. guess what? I give as much a shit about you guys as the decomposing corpses of the mobiks, and find your opinions on the topic to be as usual, laughably silly and predictable. no, I’m not gonna have any need to humanise a bunch of trash that are invading another country. do I feel genuine sympathy for the conscripts who have no choice and no possibility to surrender? sure. that’s their lot unfortunatly, but you won’t find me crying over dead Russians in Ukraine
Calling russian soldiers orcs is litteral dehumanisation straight out of the faschists playbook. Can we please collectivly agree in not becoming the strawman putin used in his “justification” for this war?
“Slava Ukraini” is fascists slogan used by, and mainly associated with, the mass murderers of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews. I guess that doesn’t count as terrorism in your worldview.
Ah yes, “Glory to Ukraine,” seems like a super specific slogan that can only be associated with one movement. In no way is it a generically nationalist slogan.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SlCLSBr9sW0
See what they are doing while chanting “Slava Ukraini”? Notice the salutes? That’s the context of this becoming popular in Ukraine (again).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_Ukraini
You might want to specify whether you’re talking about the pre-WWI, post-WWI, WWII, USSR, or post-USSR meaning.
For reference, the current year is 2023.
I already responded to this in a reply to another user:
So it’s perfectly normal to revive a slogan that was last used by fascists? I’m sure the fact that Ukraine also made Bandera a national hero and put up statues of him and named streets in his honor right around the same time that slogan made its comeback is just a coincidence? Totally innocent slogan my ass.
You might be blind in your right eye if you think this isn’t some fascist shit. This is like “the swastika is an old Hindu symbol” type defense, only worse because you’re ignoring the Hitler portrait right next to it.
I really think “Slava Ukraini” is a fascist slogan, because it is. Since you’re mad at me for pointing it out, I suspect it might be you who would get banned if you said what you really think.
In April 1941 in German-occupied Kraków, the younger part of the OUN seceded and formed its own organisation, called the OUN-B after its leader Stepan Bandera. The group adopted a fascist-style salute along with calling “Glory to Ukraine!” and responding with “Glory to the Heroes!”. During the failed attempt to build a Ukrainian state on lands occupied by Germany after its invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, triumphal arches with “Glory to Ukraine!”, along with other slogans, were erected in numerous Ukrainian cities.
No, it’s neither fascist, nor mainly associated with mass murderers to anyone except redfash
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
It’s mainly associated with “Ukrainian Nationalists” since WWI, adoped by the fascist organization which took part in the Holocaust and massacre of Poles, whose members have been granted veteran benefits in 2019, and its emblem is being used by present Ukrainians.
Meanings can change; denying history… is sus.
Lol right? I mean why would literally anyone trust Putin at this point?
I’m kind of confused why Prigozhin did what he did, even. He knew Putin was going to try to kill him afterwards, I had assumed he had his own play but I guess not.
His entire plan made very little sense. And he’s dead now so clearly whatever he thought he was doing definitely did not work out.
IIRC, I believe Putin found the family members of the people in his chain of command and threatened with their safety.
It’s pretty weird if Prigozhin didn’t have those people all locked down already, too. He knew the gravity of starting an armed rebellion and he knew as well as anyone how Putin operates.
So good he didn’t even show up there at the last conference in person because of pretty legitimate concerns they’d arrest him? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/putin-remotely-attends-brics-summit-in-south-africa-while-facing-war-crimes-warrant
Quite dishonest to equate “not wanting Ukraine invaded by Russia” with being pro NATO.
Quite dishonest to equate “not wanting Ukraine invaded by Russia” with being pro NATO.
Quite dishonest to equate “criticizing Zelensky and this US proxy war” with being tankie or russian terrorist.
That’s crazy, the level of accusatory reversal.
So from having had a few exchanges with pro Russian accounts on Lemmy (which seems to be infested with a few very active ones) this is a summary of their arguments:
- “Ukraine is Nazi”
- “Well far right parties got a total of under 6% of the vote, and they elected a Jewish man president”
- “yeah but Bandera and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine killed ethnic Russians”
- “A huge percentage of their population are ethnic Russians, including in government, and they are fine, and were until the Russian invasion. And now it’s Russia that has killed, maimed and raped more ethnic Russians, including civilians, than Ukraine every did or even could. Including their own people thorough incompetence and corruption”.
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine is fighting because they are forced to by their colonial masters, the USA and NATO, and Ukrainians will keep dying so long as they keep being armed”
- “Actually > 90% of the population wants to continue fighting for their country back, so what you’re basically saying is you think Ukrainians should be abandoned to Russian enslavement”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “NATO and USA are colonialists and this is just more colonialism”
- “Actually both Russia and China are actual, bone fide land empires, with ethnic minorities that are forced to live like colonized people - including doing the fighting for Russia while their families back home live in misery and squalor and Putin’s Mafia collect mansions, private jets and yachts”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
It was an invasion. Invasions are wrong. That should be the beginning and end of the debate.
I mean, there’s usually more to say than just that. I don’t think no discussion is the answer.
Well then discuss.
What justifies the torture, rape, pillage, kidnapping, Russia has inflicted on Ukraine?
I agree, but ignoring who started the war and who is the one actively invading who, while having already occupied territory from a past war, not too long ago, isn’t right either. Doubting the motivations of the agressor with a past in agression is important. And yes, “TheWest”™ does it too, but Ukraine, who revolted their puppet government (as told to me by people I know from there) in 2014 and having been invaded as a result, isn’t really an agressor to other countries.
I’m from northern Spain, we have had our fair share of civil revolts, the sides I support lost, and I would be SO angry with portugal or france if they had militarily intervened. Several international volunteers came to help in several of them, but volunteers != an official invasion.
I honestly feel like several commies hate “TheWest”™, and by proxy anyone that wants to be related to them so they just eat up the “There’s Nazis in power in Ukraine” speech Putin used.
And yeah, context is important, this is what I know about the whole thing, told to me by my partner, whose family lives in Ukraine and lightly searched by me:
There was a revolt in Ukrained around 2013, where they took away the alleged corrupt puppet president that was manipulating elections and funnelling tons of money to Russia. He has to flee the country when people went to his home, and he apparently had a golden toilet. So after that elections were done and another dude was put in power.
They started to de-russiafy some stuff because they were fed up of russia’s influence in a separate sovereign country, and as a result Russia invaded in 2014. They took Crimea, taking the home away from several Crimean Tatars who were originally from there. Ukraine tried to get international help but since “TheWest”™ didn’t want a full scale war against Russia, they kinda forced Ukraine to give up Crimea, since they obviously don’t have enough resources to defend alone.
Zelensky, an actor, made a TV show where he starred as a good professor that suddenly became president, and fought against the big bad of the country, corruption and oligarchs. People were quite happy by the idea he was promoting, and after popular demand he tried for elections, going into power with a huge majority. He started to de-russiafy again and try to gain more economical support of “TheWest”™, which are the countried whom they have most economical relations. He wanted to join both the EU and NATO, and Putin REALLY disliked that, since he felt threatened. Suddenly, war.
This time, “TheWest”™ decided to support Ukraine more heavily for what I’m sure are their personal reasons, but it’s important to see who the aggresor is. That the US made a bridge for Zelensky offering NATO to pressure Russia we don’t know, maybe, but the fact that a sovereign country is forcing another sovereign country against treaties that the second one wants is clear.
From now on, all the new info that I get on the subject is passed through all the before mentioned context, assuming that all info is completely tampered with. All of what I told you was stuff I knew about before this war, so it’s not like it was propaganda, for me.
As an addendum, some of the family members of my partner work for the military (tech job), and told us that there had been issues with russian agents in Donbass with removing the Ukranian passport to people and giving them the russian one, I believe that the military of every country is fed tons of propaganda, so idk about this one.
What do we also know about Russia? There are several indications that they tempered with international elections by creating fake internet movements and promoting disruptive real ones as we have seen with the whole Trump fiasco. If they did so mcuh effort for countries that are that far, I have zero ounces of doubt that the manipulation strategies Russia actively performed pre-war, in a non-NATO coutry, were a lot more aggresive. Again, commies and tankies don’t trust anything about “TheWest”™ so to them all the manipulation reports hold no weight, it’s clear that there is a divide in ideology here around how Russia operates things.
I don’t have any reputable sources to support my context because I can’t bother to search for them, I’m just browsing the web while working like all of us lazy asses, but given this context I have, it’s really hard for me and tons of people living in “TheWest”™ to trust anything Russia says, since they have a really long history of tampering with their neighbouring countries (Yes so does USA but this is about Ukraine and Russia).
Such a worthless use of brain cells. Imagine being the product of billions of years of evolution and becoming that.
I’m sure some are on a payroll. You don’t get a weird narrative like that started without planting a seed.
It’s not a coincidence they look like a better version of 2015 the_donald.
They even mocked me when I said I expected to get banned for saying that… and then banned me. Weird how that works.
Didn’t lemmy.ca defed with Hexbear because someone called (in jest) for death to landlords while Canada experiences it’s biggest housing crisis ever and rents are rising rapidly YoY solely because landlords, who otherwise deliver no intrinsic value in their position, found a way to make more money from the increased demand?
No, that wasn’t the reason and if it’s the only one you can think of you have no idea how toxic and disgusting the hexbear community is. I hate landlords too but these people are really taking it so much further than joking about dead landlords.
“Well far right parties got a total of under 6% of the vote, and they elected a Jewish man president”
6%, damn, that sounds serious. Let’s check how many seats the nationalist party in Russia got. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Russia
72.22%. Okay then.
There’s a reason Western Europe focuses on the Nazis in the context of the Holocaust: the Nazis never saw the Western Europeans as a stain on the Earth like they did the Jews and the Slavs. Russians don’t need to point to Jews to claim Nazism: they can point directly to the treatment of ethnically Russian Slavs during WW2 and the plans that Nazi Germany had for the eradication of Slavs.
Russia doesn’t need to point at how Ukraine treats Jews because to Russia, the Holocaust is dwarfed in societal impact by the issues that motivated Operation Barbarossa. The Russians lost 19 million Russian civilians in the war, why would they care about the Jews?
Nevermind that minorities in China get so many advantages it’s actually silly how much affirmative action goes on. Provinces dominated by minorities get significantly more funding per capita and even get loss-leading infrastructure projects like the Tibet and Xinjiang railways. Students from minorities get additional bonuses on gaokao (basically SAT, but imagine if schools didn’t look at anything else). Minorities are exempt from family planning policies and get massive interest-free loans for starting businesses. They get proportional representation in government. Hell, there are 55 minority groups in China making up 8% of the population.
In the army? The prevalence of rural populations in the army has been observed AROUND THE WORLD. It’s a function of rural communities being rather poor and underserved by governments in general, as well as the lack of economic opportunities that living on a farm provides. In fact, the entire notion of the underserved countryside is what allowed communism to rise in Russia and China.
Oh yeah CCP is all about diversity and minorities right?
I mean just ask the people of Tibet, or the Uyghurs right? They will tell you how much the Chinese government supports their minority culture.
Filthy fucking genocidal cunts. That’s what the Chinese Communist Party is. And your attempt to create a positive spin of them is not as subtle as you think.
Tankie scum!
Have you ever been to China? Ever talked to a person from a Chinese minority? Clearly not.
By and large their complaints are about a lack of economic opportunity (because, y’know, Inner Mongolia isn’t exactly the most hospitable climate) and that the government affirmative action isn’t enough to address the gap in resources. That’s what you’ll hear on the ground… And that’s an absolutely fair concern.
The Russians lost 19 million Russian civilians in the war, why would they care about the Jews?
Nevermind the fact that it was Russia itself that treated (and keeps treating) its soldiers as cannon fodder
I’d recommend that you read a more insightful commentary on Red Army practices during WW2 rather than following Nazi propaganda from that period. David Glantz’ work is particularly insightful.
Either way, those are 19 million civilians. That isn’t military dead, that’s civilians.
25% ish of the Russian population live in huts and shit in holes in outhouses for a lack of plumbing (mostly ethnic minorities), all while the ruling Mafia collects yachts and private jets, and launches wars.
I’m not saying there isn’t wealth inequality elsewhere, but how about a bit of perspective here. Russia cannot actually conscript too many ethnic Russians or use them as cannon fodder, since that is the only ethnicity in Russia that matters politically, since they are the middle class. Instead they send the colonized people, who happen to be those who shit in holes for a lack of plumbing.
Improved infrastructure and better access to education is not the win you think it is. Whether infrastructure and education is good or not depends on what you do with it. If you use your infrastructure to connect unruly provinces to your center of power in an effort to better exert control, then the infrastructure becomes a net-negative for the people on the receiving end. As an example, I’m sure nobody sane enough would claim that the US building the railroad was positive for native americans. Likewise, if you use your education to indoctrinate people, then better educational opportunities go hand in hand with increased oppression.
So… You’d rather people be poor and uneducated than wealthy and educated? Huh?
How were their ethnic Russians fine when this shit was happening?
I’d ask you to cite your sources but this is all sensationalized. Also, nice summary on Bandera, and the Azov fighters everyone keeps shuffling around to parliaments and fundraisers.
If you’re all so blood thirsty go put some skin in the game.
No one was shelling anything until Russia sent their “little green men” into Ukraine. Just saying…
Do you believe the Ukrainian army started shelling Donetsk without any reason?
“whatabout America” - “nooo you can’t just call me out on hypocrisy, it makes me look bad”
Whataboutism is literally a logical fallacy. We are talking about Russia, so talk about Russia.
Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy. There are historical, political, social, and economic reasons things happen, and sometimes it pays to put things in context. Limiting the discussion to the thing happening NOW and only NOW doesn’t allow for a better understanding of the events.
Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing, especially if it’s pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist. You can see based on past events such as the war on terror and endless drone striking of civilians how governments could expect that to be the standard way of operating. That doesn’t make it right, only that military intervention has been and continues to be legitimised politically by the international community.
That all sounds like brigading emotional nonsense. In fact, there were strong reasons for Russia to invade. It is probably true that Russia was manipulated into invading, it had no choice because of strategic decisions made by Ukraine. It’s a shame none of the people you talked to were able to argue the issues sensibly.
Why should Russia strategically be required to invade exactly?
I’ve never heard a cogent argument on this point.
It’s because Russia sees NATO as a threat and wants to take control of Ukraine to keep buffer states on the west side. Also, to keep it’sblack sea fleet safe. Why it happened now and not sooner or later - nobody knows. The official reasoning, of course, is bullshit, just like with any other war. Not the worst one, though.
Most people haven’t. We all have a filter bubble.
Here is a first draft, my attempt to provide the missing context. Please leave comments on anything bad or missing you notice. https://lemmy.ml/post/4848742
Ask Jens Stoltenburg. He just fucked up and bragged about how he forced them into it.
Probably the tired line of NATO expansion fears. How’d that work out? Does Russia have more or less NATO countries near their borders? The invasion itself is the best sales pitch NATO could ever need.
It is probably true that Russia was manipulated into invading, it had no choice because of strategic decisions made by Ukraine.
Of course Russia had a choice. Not invading a country is the easiest thing to do. I do it every day, and I have nowhere near the power and resources that Vlad Putin does.
I mean look, it’s a nation we talked in to giving up it’s nuclear weapons in exchange for protection and recognition by us. We really had no choice but to invade.
Very true. Russia (well, putin) has shown over and over that he can’t be trusted, he will stab you in the back and he will murder you.
Hell, the entire land grab from Ukraine was going against accords made where Russia promised to allow Ukraine to exist as a sovereign nation and Russia would get all their nukes. Russia got the nukes and theb went on to invade and steal Crimea and then to just drop all pretence and invade the entire Ukraine.
Just give some shitty transparent excuses, mumble something about non existent Nazis, and just steal lands.
So no, you can’t make deals with Putin
However, Ukraine is in a tight spot. They still rely on the west (and mostly United States)for the Weapons and gear they use on the war. Russia has the Republican party in their pocket and if the Republican party (or worse trump) wins the election, they’ll at the least stop all Help and likely hand the Ukraine to Russia on a silver platter.
This means they basically gotta gain as much as possible before the US elections, which is why they’re grinding on so much without the proper air support they’ll start having at the end of the year. It sucks, but it’s the situation they’re in.
It’s impressive though to see how much they advance without air support. Slava Ukraine!
The eerie thing is the change in the behaviour of conservatives regarding Russia. If Trump wins, will NATO fall?
The eerie thing is the change in the behaviour of conservatives regarding Russia.
What change in behavior? Conservatives hated the communist Soviet Union, but Russia as ruled by czars or fascist dictators is everything they admire.
(Also, to answer your question: yeah, probably.)
“What change” ? They were the cause of the red scare. Weird how the enemy suddenly becomes a friend, Trump is duped and the westworlds most open spy ever. EVERRRR
You have to think that’s strongly opposed by the military industrial complex. Maybe there is an alternative formulation of ways to spawn foreign wars trump will push.
As I understood Trump was a fairly peacefull pres except for the moba he dropped. Even the worst has to be good at something.
