I wasn’t going to talk in this thread any more because it typically devolves into what most of the rest of this comment section looks like with stubborness from both sides, but you seem to be quite reasonable. Please understand I’m going to talk to you in good faith, with an open mind, and I have to desire to stir things up or make fun of you or anything. I like to discuss these things, but it feels very difficult to find people with nuance, especially online. But I hope we can have a polite discussion.

The way I see it suffering and death of sentient beings should be minimised as much as practicable and possible.

Absolutely agree with you. I think anyone who doesn’t feel this way is someone I don’t want to associate with.

More plants are needed to produce meat (as feed) than to produce plant based food directly.

Yup, this is well established scientific fact.

So even if crop production kills mice etc it is more ethical to eat plants than to eat produced meat.

As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.

But nobody can measure what the true eco impact of modern massive farming is. Even the best consumer will never know where most of their food came from. We can’t tell what land damage was done, what species were impacted by how much, how much chemicals were used and what kinds, etc. Mechanized farming mows down anything in its path. Rabbits, moles, voles, birds, snakes, frogs, salamanders, racoons, possums, etc. The chemicals burn animal’s feet and kill our pollinators and spiders, runoff kills fish and other aquatic animals. I like a lot of animals people don’t typically like. Slimey ones, scaly ones, creepy crawlies, and so on. So why is hurting a mystery number of miscellaneous things automatically less bad? My issue is Big Ag and the systems that support it, not the vegans and vegetarians. We all eat, and there is a cost of lives no matter what we eat. But as I said, I can say my cost was one single thing. I’m fully aware of it, but I am thankful and respectful as I can possibly be for it. I just feel neither of us can make a claim of moral superiority over the other because we don’t have both sides of the equation to balance it out.

Moreover, the purpose of producing plant based food is not to willfully breed animals into a life of suffering and death. Deaths as a result of crop production is not the goal of crop production. It is a side effect that we can minimise.

Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions. We’ve gotten away from that kind of life as a society, and I don’t think that was one of mankind’s best decisions. Those like us that try to source the least destructive meals possible put a lot of trust into who we get food from.

I primarily eat grains and beans/lentils. I love the heck out of nearly all grains. I got some killer recipes for beans and lentils. I love tofu and seitan and falafel and Beyond burgers and sausages. But I also love paneer and butter and honey and yes, meat and seafood. I also think for some purposes, wool or leather are the best available materials to make certain things out of. If something else was better, I’d pick that first. But I try to keep learning about new synthetic materials and finding recipes that don’t always call for animal products. I use much less now than how I was raised. What I do use, I try my best to get this from more responsible sources. I don’t want to cause any unnecessary harm.

What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them? They can’t live on their own anymore (except pigs, those are some terrifying creatures given the right circumstances) so so we just let them eventually die out? It seems odd and irresponsible that we’ve turned them into what they are, but we’d let them fade away. Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them? And in addition to the cows and chickens and all that, why are domestic dogs and cats ok? I’ve had many pets, but after losing my last hound dog, I just can’t deal with losing another domestic animal. I don’t feel pets are right anymore. I’m not judging other people if they do have pets, but it feels like you guys are against keeping other animals in those kinds of situations, so why are pets different? I just stick to watching the animals in my backyard now. I’ll toss them some peanuts, which I know isn’t supposed to be good for them either, but they like them, and they’re free to do as they please.

However, it is still taking a sentient life against its will. And it is not necessary.

I saved this for last because to a certain extent I agree. From a food standpoint, I agree with you. I could give up all animal protein and be fine, as could near anyone else. But from a conservation perspective, I am going to politely disagree, and I feel killing a well regulated number of wild animals is a necessity.

People have done a number on this planet in so many ways. We’ve screwed with every ecosystem from North to South Pole and the balance that is supposed to exists does not. I’m only going to touch on the 2 animals in most familiar with two keep from spouting BS.

Deer populations do get out of hand very quickly. If you aren’t from the country and see them as majestic creatures, you have not seen how destructive large numbers of deer can be. From crop damage to landscape destruction, to just plain getting hit by cars, unregulated deer populations are not a joke.

Hunting is managed by a number of agencies. They don’t just say ok fellas, start shooting. They study all the animals all year long, determine how the populations should be adjusted, and issue that many licenses. Next year, the will adjust the number depending how their goals were met. It’s well planned by conservationists, not some Elmer Fudd free for all. People are paying to do a government job, and that money goes into more environmental programs. Some killing is done, but it’s to make a greater good for the wildlife as a whole.

The other animal I’ll talk about, which makes me very sad because it is illegal to possess any part of it, so there’s not even an upside to killing them, is owls. What people have done to old growth forests is a nightmare for a lot of species. Old trees CANNOT be replaced by new ones. That is a whole other topic.

Thousands of Barred Owls are killed by wildlife agencies every year for the last few decades. Barred Owls are amazing and beautiful creatures. But they also kill other owls. Environmental destruction has pushed them into places they didn’t used to be, and they are killing off very endangered owl species.

NPR: To Save Threatened Owl, Another Species Is Shot

This article really is captures the dilemma conservationists face. There is no other practical way to stop invasive species. They’ve tried it all. I love all the animals, but owls are one of my favorites. Check my posts, I post about owls and their protection literally every day. But we need to kill some to try to undo the mess we’ve made of our planet. I hope to heck someday that isn’t true, but it is right now.

Well, this was way more than I intended to write, but I’m kinda stressed out today and it seems this helped me work some of my anxiety out. I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you. I could talk about this stuff all day, I’m very passionate about it. Like everything else related to people, there’s miles of grey area, and compromises to be made from all perspectives. By thinking critically about the choices we make, we’re both working to be more responsible members of this place we share with our fellow creatures.

We won’t always see eye to eye, and that’s ok. I’ll keep working to understand your point of view, and even if you will never agree on hunting, I hope you read that owl article and can take something away from that about the heavy responsibility that comes with protecting animals. It doesn’t sound like a role you would want to play personally, and I respect that. But I hope you can see that it’s a responsibility I have chosen to accept. I do feel it’s for a greater good.

If you think I’m full of it, you’re welcome to think that, I just ask if that’s how you feel, let’s just both drop this conversation. But I hope I helped you understand a different viewpoint at least a little, and if you want to talk about anything more, we can.

It’s very much proven in some ecosystems where humans introduced new animals, which ate all the plants and caused tons of new erosion.

Its pretty proven at a 5th grade reading level of study, and even more proven with every grade up.

Its actually kind if hard to find a more proven aspect of biology.

Right, all those noble ecologists who spent decades studying this just decided to fake their results cause they get so horny over killing.

Nature balances out over a couple thousand years. What you are asking for is to speed up the current extinction event.

Wolves had been extinct in western Europe for hundreds of years, only slowly spreading again after the fall of the Iron Curtain 30-something years ago. And, consequently, the hunting quotas for deer are being lowered.

The chaos caused by eliminating wolves is slowly getting back to balance.

By the way: a 100 year old forest is in its early childhood. Hasn’t even reached puberty yet.

We are nature. You need to stop pretending we are magically no longer living things just because you realized other living things are also alive.

Again, I don’t disagree with you. But no food supply chain has zero cost to animals. Land is cleared to farm. “Pest animals” and insects are killed to protect yields. Animals are killed or burned by pesticides, rodenticides, and fertilizers. More animals and insects killed at storage facilities. Pollution from transport. Waste from scrapping “ugly” produce. There is still a cost, and you can’t quantify what it is.

I get about 2/3 of my annual meat from a single deer, with no waste, no pollution, and no further cost to the environment and it leaves more food through the winter for the other deer. During the rest of the year, I supply them with essential mineral supplements so they stay healthy.

If you want to judge my decisions, you’re free to. But to think you still don’t require any sacrifice from animals is a bit naive, and if you have a pet, I find that mildly hypocritical. But you do you. We’re allowed to be different and have different values and beliefs. I’m not here to force mine on you or anyone else.

But we should probably leave this chat here. We’re kinda off topic, and I dont want us to get mad with each other. Keep doing your best.