One of the major cases ruled on which this article no doubt references (it is behind a paywall app I can’t read it) is the case where a web designer was being sued for refusing to make a pride site.
That’s overriding the rights of the designer, who would have been compelled to express and associate themselves something they do not agree with.
Religious rights are free speech rights. You don’t get to force people to not say or believe something just because you disagree with it. That goes true in reverse as well.
Nothing is stopping you from going to a church and protesting its existence. That’s completely legal and part of your free expression rights. At the same time however you don’t get to dictate what they can and can’t say either.
A web designer is not a church. And a wedding is a wedding. Same sex marriage is legal in the US, and we can assume that most same sex couples who want to get married will want to have a wedding, whether it’s religious or secular, and that’s their protected right to do so.
Your argument makes sense for a church to pick and choose who they perform weddings for, because that’s their religious freedom as a religious institution. And the couple should choose a church that wants to support them. A same sex couple can go to a different church and have a religious ceremony by a different Christian pastor who believes in and supports their right to get married.
But a web designer is not a religion - it’s a service being provided for a wedding, which happens to be for a same sex couple, i.e. a wedding for a legal marriage between two people of a protected class.
So the web designer should just exercise their right to not be in the fucking wedding business if they have a problem with weddings.
Okay so we will ignore That this case was built upon entirely fabricated lies. (The people in question entirely deny any such request being made)
I can understand the “forced speech“ argument, but there needs to be some limits there. I mean if I build a website for someone, I don’t need to put my name on it nor my logo or anything, so I don’t really have to be THAT associated with it. What if this were a racist or antisemitic case? Same idea, but I refused to make a cake for a black or Jewish person (or some other obviously bigoted reason)
Where do we set the reasonable limits? Or can I just post a sign on my web design or cake shop saying that I refuse to serve black folks?
What then? Where are the reasonable limits?
Your racism example is a perfect example. No one is forcing you to give them a platform.
We need to remember that cases like this are important in setting future legal precedence. If it becomes okay to force religious people to make LGBT speech, then legally a case could be made that we need to give platforms to people like nazis or pedophiles.
It really is a great example!!!
But you sidestepped the question.
It is currently illegal to refuse service based on race. I can’t have a sign in my shop that says “no blacks”
Do you believe the I should be allowed to refuse service based on racism?
Because that’s where the reasonableness argument comes in. I can refuse service to you for any reason I want EXCEPT specific protected reasons (handicap, race, etc)
You seem to be making the argument that I should be allowed to post a sign saying “no blacks” and such signs once existed…
Thoughts?
Well, no, because making a wedding cake supporting a marriage is inherently different from making a cake supporting a hate group. One is about bringing people together, the other is about dividing them. Also, LGBTQ* people don’t choose their sexuality, it’s an inalienable part of who they are. Nazis choose to be Nazis. Some might be raised in it, so it’s all they know, but it’s something they can change about themselves. Someone who is bisexual is pretty much always going to be bisexual. It’s the same reason we don’t discriminate on the basis on skin color: it’s something the person can’t control about themselves and has no bearing on who they are except to the degree society has made it so. A religion discriminating on the basis of race or sexuality doesn’t mean it’s okay to do so. Christians also used to believe in child marriage, but guess what? Times have changed.
Additionally, just because it’s speech doesn’t mean it’s equal in what it’s doing nor does it mean that it should be treated the same. Ignoring that this case probably shouldn’t be used as precedent because the underlying facts are made up (also showing how disingenuous the argument is), there’s a difference between saying you can’t choose to deny business to someone because of who they are (LBGTQ*) versus saying you can choose not to do business with someone over their opinion (Nazi).
