Like many, when the recent defederation went down, I decided to create a couple other logins and see what the wider fediverse has had to say about it.
I’ve been, honestly, a bit surprised by the response. A huge portion of people seem to be misidentifying communities as belonging to “lemmy” as opposed to the instances that host them. I think a big portion of this seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what this software is, and how it works.
For example, lemmy.world users are pissed at being de-federated because it excludes them from Beehaw communities. This outrage seems wholly placed in the concept that Beehaw’s communities are “owned” by the wider fediverse. This is blatantly not how lemmy works. Each instance hosts a copy of federated instances’ content for their users to peruse. The host (Beehaw in this example) remains being the source of truth for these communities. As the source of truth, Beehaw “owns” the affected communities, and it seems people have not realized that.
This also has wider implications for why one might want to de-federate with a wider array of instances. Lets say I have a server in a location that legally prohibits a certain type of pornography. If my users subscribe to other instances/communities that allow that illegal pornography, I (the server admin) may find myself in legal jeopardy because my instance now holds a copy of that content for my users.
Please keep this in mind as you enjoy your time using Lemmy. The decisions that you make affect the wider instance. As you travel the fediverse, please do so with the understanding that your interactions reflect this instance. More than anything, how can we spread this knowledge to a wider audience? How can we make the fediverse and how it works less confusing to people who aren’t going to read technical documentation?
People don’t dislike defederation because they misunderstand it. They dislike it because it’s a bad user experience. It sucks to effectively get banned from a bunch of major communities through no fault of your own. It’s a flawed system. I don’t know what a good solution would be, but it’s definitely an issue.
I guess one solution is to encourage users to join servers that are as small as possible, to reduce the chance of getting blocked. But that approach comes with its own set of downsides too.
I’m torn on defederation. In theory I like it; a user can join an instance that moderates to the level that they agree with. Beehaw is a pretty good example of this because a lot of users like having a slightly more restrictive community in order to maintain a certain vibe.
But there is a more pragmatic side of me that thinks that the average user isn’t super informed about this stuff, and are naturally going to gravitate to the larger instances. No doubt there were more trolls coming from lemmy.world, but there are far more regular users that have no idea what’s going on.
I think Beehaw’s decision is understandable though, especially given the lack of moderation tools. They’ve already mentioned that they are willing to (re?)federate in the future when trolls/bots are easier to deal with.
I think that this can easily be mitigated by the addition of transferable user profiles. Because the easier it is to hop off of a server and move to another, the better. You lose those communities in the event of a split, but then you desire new ones on your new instance and go join them. It would heal the UX much faster.
Like other users, I expect this will largely become a rarer and rarer occurrence as moderation levels out. We’re very early in the game still.
One thing I haven’t seen talked about is the benefit of this defederation. When beehaw defederated, what happened immediately? A lot of noise was made. The mods got in contact and opened dialog. Communities desired federation. While that’s interpreted as entitlement, I think it’s possible beneficial to keep the number of defederation events low and only done when necessary.
Brand new to lemmy, but this is my take as well. The first account I created was on lemmy.world and then I had to create another to come here. Imagine if Verizon ‘defederated’ from T-Mobile because of a few bad actors.
The problems are real, but the solutions Lemmy currently seems to offer are going to stifle it’s growth before it can truly go big. I can deal with it, but as it currently stands I could never get my friends to join and even if they did, a defederation event happening would kill the concept dead for my more casual friends.
Imagine if Verizon ‘defederated’ from T-Mobile because of a few bad actors.
People have been conditioned to never answer their phones when an unknown number calls because of a few bad actors that severely abuse the system and none of the network operators want to take responsibility for the actions of their users (and they are profiting from this lack of moderation).
Imagine if ISPs and services like Cloudflare didn’t counter DDoS attacks.
It’s just like when email blew up. Email is a federated system as well. These are basically the same arguments I was hearing in the late 80s, early 90s about email. It’s too confusing, nobody will ever use it.
Most servers did zero authentication for incoming emails. When spammers suddenly struck huge ip blocks were banned including innocent bystanders. Any “home” machine was often port blocked from running a mail server.
They developed tools and techniques to mitigate problems and now nobody cares where your email is.
The tools for this area known and the devs are working on it. Early adopters experience some friction.
That’s basically how federated software has to work. Without defederation, running federated software becomes unusable. Either you get overrun by spammers or you become legally liable for illegal content from other servers if you don’t do anything about it (the beehaw admins mentioned someone posting child porn as being one reason for defederation). Lemmy is clearly in its early days but this kind of thing will become way more common, as it is on more mature fediverse platforms.
Email providers are a good example of federated software. They have to make sure nobody is sending spam or malware or they will get federated, and they can be very aggressive about that.
Ultimately if you don’t want defederation to ever happen, you want a centralized system run by a single organization. Those are your options.
Or you can have the government step in and have a very highly regulated system like for telephony, where almost nobody gets to run an instance, which seems unlikely in this case.
Yep. I have accounts on three instances, but I had been using my Lemmy.World one the most, and then suddenly my beehaw communities are gone. It’s not a huge deal given that these accounts are so young, but it was still annoying. These sorts of things will prevent Lemmy from growing as an overall community.
Yeah, and the user experience matters a lot right now. The reddit blackout is the best chance for rapid Lemmy/fediverse growth, so giving the best user experience right now is critical. Users who are new to the fediverse are already confused by the multiple instances, adding in extra conditions like “don’t join these communities because you can’t interact with this community” adds an extra level of complexity and makes the fediverse seem fractured and flawed as a first impression.
Beehaw’s decision to defiderate may have been the best short-term decision for them, but I feel like it’s a terrible decision for the rest of the fediverse and will hurt growth.
Hard agree. It’s the instability of the user experience that really sucks here.
I do think this kind of thing may solve itself given more time. Instances will establish reputations and their behavior will become more predictable and dependable over time. Right now, users basically have to gamble when joining an instance, or be willing to juggle multiple accounts.
I’d assume it’s better to stay away from small instances though, unless you know the owner. Small instances are very vulnerable. Who knows if that owner will keep maintaining the instance? If it disappears, so does your account.
I think it is fair to also consider the excessive centralized moderation like the kind we criticize on reddit to be a part of the user experience. Those similar problems that only affect specific instances, but not all, is a part of the user experience here with lemmy.
To be fair, email works the same way and there are a number of domains that different email server admins block to avoid spam or for any reason they choose. I know some smaller ones block gmail and others because the gigantic amount of spam they send. I also recall the relatively quaint days of Ukraine drama in 2014 had motivated a local university to block my email because my web/email host was located in Ukraine.
Sure, there are times when individual server admins will muck things up, but rarely does my email not make it to where I want it to go. My point is that I think that this is being made into a bigger issue than it is.
Defederating lemmy.world is a temporary measure as better mod tools are made. It isn’t worth handwringing over. Defederation should not be the norm for dealing with a few trolls, or objectionable communities.
This isn’t handwringing, though I can understand why it might come off that way. This is simply mulling over how things “actually work” in the fediverse as opposed to how people believe it works. I believe that many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this software is and how it works. This is an educational issue that we have an opportunity to begin sorting out
In addition, my scenario of instance users subscribing to illegal content will still be valid even with moderation tools. The only way to stop that currently is defederation with instances hosting illegal content.
Federation/Fediverse should mean a user of any instance should be able to use any community. Gated communities shouldn’t be the expected norm. So, I would agree with the lemmy.world people who are upset at being broadly blocked from a Fediverse community. But it doesn’t matter because beehaw says it is temporary.
This is true, except for one element:
Fediverse should mean a user of any instance should be able to use any community the instance elects to federate with. Lemmy is open by design, but instances can just as easily switch that feature off and go to a allowlist method.
A commonly missed element with federation is that you federate with who you trust since you essentially mirror their content. It’s less apparent with the lemmy migration, but mastodon used to caution its users to “join an instance that aligns with your preferences” for this reason.
Federation is really a philosophy about mutual trust, just like how email providers can block messages by user, instance, or domain.
Trust me, there’s likely more gating present than you’re aware of. Maybe not at lemmy.world (which as of this post is only blocking one site for reasons I won’t mention), but this can get dark pretty quick if you leave things completely open.
I don’t think that assertion is based in reality. A server has to be hosted somewhere, and admins will generally choose to uphold those local regulations for the sake of their instance’s own longevity. Federation has never meant that you communicate with literally every other instance. This isn’t Tor where nodes pass along communications that don’t directly involve themselves.
By that line of reasoning all alt-right, homophobe, harassing, doxxing, trolling etc. instances should be allowed to access every other instance to spread their hate. Is that really what you want? I don’t.
My understanding is that people from Lenny.world can still “use” behaw by subscribing to communities and commenting on posts, but people on Behaw just can’t see them. Is that not how it works?
I have to say I chose behaw because I wanted a more heavily modded experience here. I really don’t mind them shadow banning whole communities if a disproportionate number of trolls are coming over from them. People have got the right to speak, not the right to be heard. The internet’s full of kids just wanting to be obnoxious, and I’ve got to say I’m more then happy that other humans are helping me to filter that junk out
Just because this software can be used that way, doesn’t mean you’re required to use it that way.
If I want to start a lemmy server and not let lemmy.world in, there’s nothing wrong with that.
Lemmy.world isn’t owed anything, they’re not owed to view content in my community, they’re not owed that I show their content to my users. And if my users are unhappy with that, that’s fine, it’s their choice to stay in my enclosed community or not.
Just because we’re running the same software and the same communication protocols doesn’t change that.
Nah. I don’t think it’s an education issue. E.g. I do understand how it works, but see defederation as the nuclear option. As a user in a federated system I don’t care where the communities are hosted that I frequent. As long as it works. That’s the entire point of federation. Otherwise we could just remove federation all together and have everyone create a separate account per instance.
I get where the beehaw admins are coming from and it’s understandable. But it’s not good and chips away at what Lemmy is and could be.
This is one instance now where this happened and I’m not on either of these instances, so I’m unaffected. But if I see more of these defederations (no matter where), the Signal it sends me is that for my needs I likely still have to bet on Reddit and at max this will become an occasional visit.
We are still far away from this point. Just saying. And a normal user can’t be expected to understand it or relate to it. It’s bad UX if they have to. Arguing for them to be educated about it is nice in theory, but misses in reality of how things just are.
Beehaw admins have no responsibility to “Lemmy as a whole” and to believe so is fundamentally misunderstanding what Lemmy instances are. They have a responsibility to their users to curate the space that they promised.
@Cipher I think of it more of an instructional issue specifically rather than learning issue. People explain “it’s like email” but fail to deliver the fact that it should be more like “It’s how the internet should work”. Where people think Lemmy is THE SITE and can communicate with kbin THE SITE.
It should be mentioned that if anyone has built a website, that Lemmy is the software. You install Google Chrome on your computer, you install lemmy on your computer. You are now able to ACCESS all the other websites like you would in Chrome.
People think “oh it’s like email, well I know Gmail is pretty good so I’ll make an account there. Whatever decisions Google makes is by extension my decision.” The average user doesn’t know what email actually is. They don’t know that you can make your own email service. They don’t know you can even just buy a domain and have your own email address.
The only thing that bugs me about the fediverse as a whole is that these threadiverse concepts shouldn’t have communities. If it was implemented as intended, you’d have to make a community by making a new instance. The community should be federated, and then duplicate communities would get individually federated or defederated.
I think the ambiguity of the fediverse is muddied by how each software is trying to implement it. And it’s almost hard to incentivize making your own instance.
People think "oh it’s like email, well I know Gmail is pretty good so I’ll make an account there. Whatever decisions Google makes is by extension my decision
This is why I think email analogy is very useful to get the basics of how Lemmy/kbin work on a technical level but falls flat on a practical and social level
You have what I would call federation idealists that feel that is should be just like email you should be able to contact anyone. This ignores the fact that email is private communication tool vs a public facing forum.
The argument that instances should be utilities with no “politics” or “culture” just ignores the reality.
The problem with the idea that each community should be its own instance basically comes down to cost, both financial and time. If I want to make a community about something I’m passionate about I’d have to shell out money I don’t have on hosting, buy a domain, learn how to actually host and administrate a Lemmy instance, and then spend like half of my time and energy maintaining it.
Not everyone is a programmer with programmer knowledge making programmer money.
It’s unfortunate that a handful of replies here are demonstrating exactly why the Beehaw community leaders felt they had to make this choice. 😞
If Lemmy instances are like web forums, federation basically gives us a “Sign in with your [home instance] account” option. (That’s not technically accurate at all, I’m only talking about the user experience.) It reduces user friction and helps people participate more widely. They just stopped allowing that from certain instances because they think adding a bit of friction back in will be healthier for the Beehaw communities. If you’re on one of the defederated instances, you aren’t banned. Yeah, it’s inconvenient for you, but you just need a different sign-in (at least for the time being).
From an end user perspective, I want a singular UI to browse all my various Lemmy identities in a cohesive manner. Not logged in on multiple tabs, trying to keep my subscription lists synced or otherwise organized. This is where a good app front end could smooth a lot of user friction out of the process.
This is the best solution - copying accounts across would just replicate the problems of being overwhelmed that the beehaw mods were trying to avoid by defederating. They absolutely would want to stop auto-copying of accounts from exactly the same instances that they’ve defederated from.
Having fediverse apps that can handle multiple accounts would solve the problem for folks that can be bothered to make a beehaw account because they like the vibe over here but stop the low effort folks from carelessly posting low effort, high hassle nastiness here because they think that federated means unmoderated freedom rather than cooperative interlinked communities, partly because they just don’t see beehaw posts for them to interact with.
To me the whole situation is a “they bit off more than they could chew” kind of thing so you pull the nuclear option… Honestly I’m avoiding subscribing to any beehaw communities because I won’t be able to see any posts made from one of the most populous instances, hence diminishing their value. As a general user I would avoid signing up for beehaw as well for the same reasons, which to be fair is what beehaw probably wants given their lack of resources.
bit off more than they could chew
By starting a Lemmy instance a year and a half before Rexxit? I never saw them claim to want to be the next Reddit. The Fediverse had an influx of users and Lemmy doesn’t currently have the mod or admin tools to deal with that situation gracefully. My understanding is that most of the bad actors were external to Beehaw.
They didn’t bite off anything, shit was being shoved into their mouth so they closed it.
Personally, I’m using my very own Lemmy instance so that I can choose who I federate with (including Beehaw). I totally understand why some folks might want to have their home instance elsewhere, and it’s cool that federation gives us that ability.
By starting a Lemmy instance a year and a half before Rexxit?
By not being prepared for it. It was setup with default communities, like technology for example (correct me if I’m wrong), but no plan to deal with those with moderation capabilities and levels that reach their own standard. To me it’s only making the entire experience untrustworthy and stunted. Somehow lemmy.world and others can deal with it without defederating others so that’s where I’ll go.
By not being prepared for it. It was setup with default communities, like technology for example (correct me if I’m wrong), but no plan to deal with those with moderation capabilities and levels that reach their own standard.
i mean… yeah? it’s not every day you suddenly have 5x the number of total users on your site visiting the site per minute because a major corporation just did something extremely unpopular with no forewarning. if we had that kind of clairvoyance, i’d be a millionaire and running this site would just be my full-time job. this strikes me as an irrational critique informed by the hindsight you have now, weeks after it began.
Somehow lemmy.world and others can deal with it without defederating others so that’s where I’ll go.
this is primarily because they have more permissive rules and no defined ethos they’re trying to upkeep—or at least, they don’t have the latter in a way that requires constant maintenance. (as a point of note last i checked, lemmy.world didn’t even have listed rules, per se,[1] so it’d be hard to parse what’s even not allowed as a user besides “actively illegal content”) we, by contrast, have a very clear idea of what we want—we spent a year thinking about it, and we’re at a year and a half of making it reality—so defederation in the absence of better mod tools is an extremely obvious way to maintain that. actually it’s the only tool we have in a lot of cases, which is a gripe we have with Lemmy that we’re trying to solve
although Ruud has told us he’ll moderate hate speech, bigotry, etc. from the top, so implicitly those aren’t supposed to be allowed. i question how viable doing this is with such an open-registration policy, more-or-less unvetted mods, and lots of communities to keep track of but i suppose all instances here can be thought of as large-scale experiments right now ↩︎
People also need to be mindful that the concept of the fediverse isn’t a simple one, not to the majority of people who use Reddit / other sites. We want to try and streamline the process of searching for, signing up to and contributing to content, at least if we want these platforms to continue to grow.
We don’t need the 400+ million that Reddit has but having more interested users will help generate more content / engagement
