More than 200 Substack authors asked the platform to explain why it’s “platforming and monetizing Nazis,” and now they have an answer straight from co-founder Hamish McKenzie:
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don’t think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse.
While McKenzie offers no evidence to back these ideas, this tracks with the company’s previous stance on taking a hands-off approach to moderation. In April, Substack CEO Chris Best appeared on the Decoder podcast and refused to answer moderation questions. “We’re not going to get into specific ‘would you or won’t you’ content moderation questions” over the issue of overt racism being published on the platform, Best said. McKenzie followed up later with a similar statement to the one today, saying “we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.”
Honestly? Unless I’m missing something, this sounds fine.
The internet I grew up on had Nazis, racists, Art Bell, UFO people, software pirates, and pornographers. The ACLU defended KKK rallies. Some of the people who were allowed a platform, that “everyone hated” and a lot of people wanted to censor, were people like Noam Chomsky who I liked hearing from.
I think there’s a difference between “moderation” meaning “we’re going to prevent Nazis from ruining our platform for people who don’t want to hear from them” – which, to me, sounds fine and in fact necessary in the current political climate – and “moderation” meaning “if you hold the wrong sort of views you’re not allowed to express them on my platform.” The Nazi bar analogy, and defederating with toxic Lemmy instances, refers to the first situation. If I understand Substack’s platform properly, it’s the second: Only the people who want to follow the Nazis can see the Nazis. No? Am I wrong in that?
I’m fully in agreement with McKenzie that not allowing “wrong” views to be expressed and legitimately debated makes it harder to combat them, not easier. They’re not gonna just evaporate because “everyone agrees they’re bad” except the people who don’t.
I realize this is probably a pretty unpopular view.
Substack is not just allowing Nazis to use their product.
Substack is not just paying the hosting costs for Nazi essays.
They are paying the authors of those Nazi essays.
That goes way beyond “not censoring” Nazis.
It is active, monetary support.
Substack is a venue where you can make money by writing Nazi essays.
I don’t really understand Substack or fully grasp the issues involved; I’m just gonna say how I see it. I looked over their monetization page, and it kind of looks like the way it works is that the Nazi’s readers (other Nazis, presumably) can sign up for a subscription, and Substack I assume takes a cut, and the rest goes to the Nazi. So it kind of sounds like the Nazis are paying each other, with a cut of that going to Substack. Do I have that right? It sounds like the Nazis (in the aggregate) are paying Substack. Nobody at Substack is raising money and using it to subsidize any Nazis. The Nazis are subsidizing hosting for random other publishers who don’t have subscriptions. I think.
Irregardless of all that, I just have this general dislike of “demonitization” and the modern ethos of publishing on the internet. The demonitization on Youtube is totally weird. You can’t say “suicide” or refer to sexual abuse or have gunshot sounds or say “fuck” in the first thirty seconds, except sometimes you can, and some content which is clearly harmful is allowed, and other stuff gets randomly taken away. Everyone lives under the constant threat of saying the wrong thing and suddenly getting, essentially, fired. One extremely popular Youtuber I liked left because he couldn’t say what he wanted. John Stewart got “demonetized” from Apple+ just recently because he said something about China. The whole thing is stupid. Just let people say stuff. If it’s illegal, take it down and prosecute them. If it’s not, then let them say it. Yes I know the letter of the first amendment only applies to the government. I’m just saying I like the spirit, too. This culture’s developed of policing what people can and can’t say to a degree I find really off putting.
I get how we got here. You don’t want people saying not to take the COVID vaccine or that the election was stolen, and producing real harm in the real world. But the landscape we’ve wound up at is stupid. Just let people be Nazis if they’re Nazis. They’re going to be Nazis, whether you allow them to or not. In fact, letting them participate in an open forum of ideas makes it more likely that they’ll reform than chasing them away to a Nazi-only forum. If they’re being toxic to other users, or doing something illegal in addition (which, to be fair, Nazis often are), then prosecute them for that behavior, not for being Nazis.
One of the really earthshattering moments for me on the early internet was reading posts from people who were “the enemy” in a shooting war that at the time I thought my country was “the good guys” of. It really blew my mind once I realized that Hamas is allowed to be on the internet, and North Korea, and Israel and The Daily Stormer and Hugo Chavez and Noam Chomsky. They’re all allowed to have their web site. The modern internet is becoming more and more siloed, so that “I’m allowed to run a web server if I want” is less and less a determiner of whether that culture can continue. For better or worse, we’re more than a little dependent now on whether big corporations who run the infrastructure want to let that chaotic “the bad guys are allowed to be here too” nature continue. They don’t seem like they want to, and I don’t like that.
Again, maybe this is an unpopular view, but that’s how I see it.
Let’s take the Web out of the equation.
Let’s imagine this is all being done using the old-school printing press.
Let’s say Substack is a magazine publisher.
If you publish a Nazi magazine, that Nazis pay you to subscribe to …
… and you pay the Nazi authors of the Nazi articles in your Nazi magazine …
… then you’re a material supporter of Nazism.
Simply put propaganda works. If you allow people to spread hate then it grows. I don’t think you have ever been a person on the receiving side of hate where a group of people want you to cease to exist, to take your rights away, or to torture you.
In our modern world if you spread intolerance you are shunned and deplatformed. That is a big improvement compared to the past. It is not perfect either.
You mentioned people get silenced unfairly or cut short because of pushing boundaries. This weighs heavy on your thought process imagining bogey men taking away people’s freedoms.
It is ultimately a naive and impractical viewpoint though borne out of privilege and lack of experience. This whole freedom of speech movement is a red hearing for hate speech and you bought into it trying to be reasonable. There is no reasoning with them and you are simply wrong.
Where out of my message did you get that I was talking like it was harmless opinions? I get it that my tone was casual and I can apologize about that. Let me take it a little more seriously, then:
Let me guess, you’re not the kind of person that the Nazis are extremely keen on putting in a gas chamber?
Because you’re talking like this is just harmless, but unpopular opinions people have. Not a group of people who by definition think they are the master race and people who are “impure” need to be genocides.
I have a decent amount of Jewish ancestry and a Jewish name. I’m not practicing or anything. My parents had a friend who had the numbers tattooed on her arm.
Part of the reason I’m so casual about literal modern Nazis is that the modern threat of extremism isn’t specific to Jewish people. Hispanic people are probably more at risk; under Trump, ICE detention centers became temporarily something that any informed person would describe as for-real concentration camps. I think if it does start to happen in a big way in the US, it will probably start with trans and Hispanic people and continue from there.
But every single one of us, Jewish or LGBT or Hispanic or just Democrat-supporting, is at risk under a second Trump presidency or whatever the next iteration after Trump is. That’s not some abstract “I know your struggle” type of statement; I literally believe that Nazi-type violence and mass incarceration of “the enemy” are on the table according to a much wider swathe of the US populace than official-Nazi supporters.
And honestly I can’t fucking stand spineless cunts like you that think we can’t draw a reasonable line between Nazis calling for the end of entire races and for one of the worst atrocities in thr history of mankind to happen again, and Naom Chomsky. Putting “wrong” in quotation marks as if thinking genocidal racists being wrong is just a matter of opinion. And you have such little regard for the people that suffer at the hand of these scumbags that you think you can play devil’s advocate as a fun little excessive for yourself.
Okay, let me ask you, then. I have Facebook friends who make posts about getting themselves amped up for civil war if “the Democrats” keep it up. I would describe that as an atrocity. Dead is dead. A Jew in a concentration camp is just as dead as a Democrat who got shot by his neighbor because they got radicalized and decided today was the day (which has already happened, it’s just on a tiny scale at this stage).
Most of the way I talk about this issue is colored by that. I do take the threat of extremism seriously, because it’s already alive and well here, and growing. I think that figuring out what to do about the form in which it’s most likely to become a horrifying reality is fairly important. If Jews wind up going into modern-day concentration camps, they won’t be the first. They’ll be an afterthought, long after Trump’s political enemies and big segments of Hispanic (and maybe arab) people have gone in. If you’re serious about the threat to Jewish people and want me to take it seriously (which is fair), can I ask you to be serious about the threat to all the rest of us?
What is your solution to the people who want to write “shoot the Democrats because they stole the election and took away your country”? People who say that every day and platforms that give them voice? My feeling on it is the same as what I said to you about Nazis. But what, according to you, should we do that will work? I am more concerned about that, as a present-day urgent issue, than about “put the Jews into gas chambers” propaganda, although that’s clearly also horrifying.
What is your solution to the people who want to write “shoot the Democrats because they stole the election and took away your country”? People who say that every day and platforms that give them voice?
This might blow your mind a little bit: depilatform them. Hatespeech is hatescppech, a call to violence is a call to violence. Neither is protected by your first amendment, and both should be completely and utterly illegal.
This isn’t some difficult mystery to figure out. There’s no catch 22 or irreconcilable conflict of rights going on here. Its pretty cut and dry. Anyone whether they’re a traditional nazi, neo nazi, maga nazi does not have the right to call for peoples deaths or for violence against them.
Germany has had restriction on Nazis for a long time now. And hasn’t had issues with censoring non-nazi speech. So why can’t your country?
And also, if you allow for Nazi speech, how far do you take it? do you let them draw up plans and organise gangs to hunt down undesirables? Only intervening when the physical violence actually starts?
If you do not work to prevent atrocities, and turn a blind eye to those trying to commit them then you are in fact tacitly complicit in those atrocities.
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either
Actions speak louder than words. Fuck Substack and fuck any platform that offers a safe haven for nazis.
“I want you to know that I don’t like nazis. But I am fine platforming them and profiting from them. Now here is some bullshit about silencing ‘ideas.’”
Don’t forget the, “I’m not going to answer questions about specific would you or won’t you moderation issues” bullshit.
Which is…such an insane and flagrant “I’m a fucking idiot and I assume you are too,” tee up for any quarter way decent journalist. It sets you up perfectly to make that look like the mountain of horseshit that it is with the simplest of follow-ups.
I have to guess that you’re referencing the Decoder interview with Nilay Patel, and if not here’s another example of Substack being absolutely abhorrent. Transcript. It’s one of the most mealy mouthed tech bro bullshit things I’ve ever heard.
If there are 10 nazis at a table and you decide to sit among them, there are 11 nazis sitting at that table.
Hearing some one out and not changing your viewpoint after the conversation, doesn’t make you one of them. 🙄
When it comes to listening to hate speech and not condoning it outrright then and there, even if you don’t explicitly support it, it does make you complicit, and it shows you’re willing to turn a blind eye to it, and that speaks negatively to your character.
Don’t be a Nazi sympathizer, don’t let them off the hook, don’t let them spread their hate and lies. You disagree with Nazism? Then don’t give it even an inch to spread. Kill it in the cradle.
Thing is, we’ve heard out the nazis before. We don’t need to do that anymore.
My viewpoint is that I dont have any obligation to “hear out” a nazi. And neither does anyone else. GTFO with this “even nazis should be given a fair shake” shit.
Out of curiosity, let’s say a man needs a place for sleep, and for get one, he decides to help out a nazi, for example by fixing their long distance radio, would you call this person a nazi,@xkforce@lemmy.world ?
Why couldn’t the man go to a homeless shelter, or a church, or a bus stop, or a park bench, or literally anywhere other than a Nazi’s house? Also, what does a Nazi need a long distance radio for? Maybe by fixing it and not asking questions he’s helping them coordinate with other fascists to hurt and kill people. Is that worth a place to sleep for a night? Is it worth a few bucks if you’re not homeless but actually a wealthy business owner who can do as they please?
Why couldn’t the man go to a homeless shelter, or a church, or a bus stop, or a park bench, or literally anywhere other than a Nazi’s house? No homeless shelter, church, or a bus stop, park bench wasn’t a possibility, as there was german patrols watching the town. Also, what does a Nazi need a long distance radio for? For hear the news from Germany. Long distance radio was quite popular in the 40s. You could hear radios from the other side of a continent with those. Is that worth a place to sleep for a night? If it prevents you to get arrested by the Nazis, and questioned, I would say yes.
The man I mention in my post is this guy As he was visiting the french riviera gathering intels for the british intelligence, he got in the situation I described in my previous post.
A lot of people died rather than help them so yes I would judge the shit out of someone that helps a nazi knowing full well what they are.
The person I mention in my previous post, is this man. As he was along the french riviera, looking for intels, he ended in this situation, that there was no vacancy in hotels, and he finally got a hotel room, by fixing the long distance radio. How do you judge the shit out of him, by curiosity ?
So you think Deeyah Khan is a Nazi?
(I’d encourage anyone to watch White Right: Meeting the Enemy if you haven’t seen it.)
I actually prefer this type of hands-off approach. I find it offensive that people would refuse to let me see things because they deem it too “bad” for me to deal with. I find it insulting anyone would stop me reading how to make meth or read Mein Kampf. I’m 40yo and it’s pretty fucking difficult to offend me and to think I’m going to be driven to commit crime just by reading is offensive.
I don’t need protecting from speech/information. I’m perfectly capable and confident in my own views to deal with bullshit of all types.
If you’re incapable of dealing with it - then don’t fucking read it.
Fact is the more you clamp down on stuff like this the more you drive people into the shadows. 4chan and the darkweb become havens of ‘victimhood’ where they can spout their bullshit and create terrorists. When you prohibit information/speech you give it power.
In high school it was common for everyone to hunt for the Anarchists/Jolly Roger Cookbook. I imagine there’s kids now who see it as a challenge to get hold of it and terrorist manuals - not because they want to blow shit up, but because it’s taboo!
Same with drugs - don’t pick and eat that mushroom. Don’t burn that plant. Anyone with 0.1% of curiosity will ask “why?” and do it because they want to know why it’s prohibited.
Porn is another example. The more you lock it down the more people will thirst for it.
Open it all up to the bright light of day. Show it up for all it’s naked stupidity.
Agreed. I actually had come back to this topic specifically to make this exact point, which for all the time I’d spent on this at this point I feel like I hadn’t said.
People are adults, generally speaking. It’s weird to say that you can’t have a newsletter that has a literal swastika on it, because people will be able to read it but unable to realize that what it’s saying is dangerous violence. Apparently we have to have someone “in charge” of making sure only the good stuff is allowed to be published, and keeping away the bad stuff, so people won’t be influenced by bad stuff. This is a weird viewpoint. It’s one the founding fathers were not at all in agreement with.
Personally, I do think that there’s a place for organized opposition to slick internet propaganda which pulls people down the right-wing rabbit hole, because that’s a huge problem right now. I don’t actually know what that opposition looks like, and I can definitely see a place for banning certain behaviors (bot accounts, funded troll operations, disguising the source of a message) that people might class as “free speech,” or adding counterbalancing “free speech” in kind to misleading messages (Twitter’s “community notes” are actually a pretty good way of combating it for example). But simply knee-jerking that we have to find the people who are wrong, and ban them, because if we let people say wrong stuff then other people will read it and become wrong, is a very childish way to look at people who consume media on the internet.
This article is not about government censorship. This is about a private entity actively deciding to allow nazi content on their platform. Hand wringing about founding fathers belongs in some other thread where the topic is the government prohibiting content from being published.
I’m aware of how the first amendment applies, yes. I agree with the spirit of it in addition to the letter, though. You’re free to delete the one sentence where I talked about founding fathers, and respond to the whole rest of my message which doesn’t reference them or government censorship in any way.
(Edit: Actually, I wasn’t super explicit about it, but in the whole final paragraph I was thinking partly of government regulation to combat misinformation. That is, in part, what I meant by “organized opposition.” So, I spent time in my message referring to what the government should do to limit harmful internet content, and no time at all talking about what it shouldn’t do. I did throw in a passing reference to founding fathers, in reference to the spirit that I think should inform private companies who are non-governmental gatekeepers of content.)
That’s not really how this works. Do you also think advertising and marketing don’t work?
Pinching the bridge of my nose here. Nazi blog posts are marketing for nazi beliefs. They’re posting because they have ideas that they want you to have, too. What do you think marketing is? Ok, let’s assume you’re asking in good faith.
When you see an ad you don’t typically run right out and buy it. But now you’re more aware of whatever they’re advertising. Maybe that’s a new car. Maybe it’s pepsi. Maybe it’s “You should recycle.” And maybe, when it’s a literal nazi post, it’s “the jews are the problem”. Some people will bounce right off the ad… Some people will immediately click through, read the related links, blah blah. And many people who read it will sort of remember it, and now have context for the next post they see. The more ads they see for nazi beliefs (or anything, really), the more likely they are to be persuaded.
If you saw posts every day that promoted nazism as a solution for the world’s problems, it would have an effect on you. Look how effective fox news has been at propagating right wing beliefs.
In a lot of languages advertising and propaganda are literally the same word. The only difference is whether the goal is commercial or political.
fascinated that you think it would somehow be harder for you to go out and find nazis if substack weren’t hosting and paying them. it will always be easy to find and read Nazi content. the reason substack matters is that the platform helps THEM find YOU, or a suggestible journalist, or a suggestible politician, etc. you are not the protagonist here
Good for them. I’m all for allowing people make their own choices about what kind of content they want to see instead of a corporation/government deciding for them.
I can’t think of a single thing we’ve succesfully gotten rid of by banning it. I however can think of several examples where it has had an opposite effect.
I totally agree.
If I don’t want to see something, I should be able to block it myself.
I don’t want other people deciding what I should and should not see. That’s patronizing.
if the nazis come into power, you will not be able to “decide not to see them”
I don’t think preemptive fascism is the solution. The world many people seem to be advocating for here doesn’t honestly seem that much different from one led by nazies. They just replace jews and gays with other groups of people they don’t like.
Nazi Germany. We banned the fuck out of them and it worked out great until people started to forget why.
