it seems clear that there are less POC people on hexbear then there was before. what would you propose, and what do you think the issues are if any. i will be refraining from sharing my opinion for now to encourage more ideas.
white comrades are allowed to post emotes to boost this thread so more people can see it.
great feedback everyone! im loving the discussion. im going to say something potentially controversial but i hope you will hear me out.
I do not think comparing carnism to the enslavement of black people or the holocaust is appropriate. we have lost a few poc users because of this particular issue. i must be clear. i am pro veganism 100%, and i fully understand the comparison but this specific rhetoric is more harmful to both the vegan movement and to making this a safe space for poc users. think about it, when you say this to a black carnist you are comparing them to the people that enslaved their ancestors, this will create a knee jerk reaction and STOP a conversation that could have been productive. would you really say this to poc irl? thank you for listening and to reiterate i am 100000% proveganism and enjoy many parts of the vegan culture on here this is just one line i feel should not be crossed. other black and jewish users, feel free to disagree i would appreciate your insight, thank you.
I’m a jew and before I express the rest of my thoughts I want to say that I do not want to derail this conversation into one about the merits/validity of the comparison of industrial animal agriculture to the holocaust, though I and and other jews have supported the comparison.
It’s not usually my topic of choice when discussing veganism with carnists precisely because of how likely omnivores are to get defensive and how much more fraught with controversy that conversation becomes in comparison to other approaches to conversations about the immorality of animal exploitation. That said, I think that banning the topic or anybody who compares animal processing facilities to concentration camps when it’s relevant, especially if they aren’t doing so flippantly or aggressively, is not a good direction. If multiple holocaust survivors did not agree on the merits of this comparison and it weren’t so damn useful for revealing cognitive dissonance and showing vegetarians how they compartmentalize their ideas on the morality of consuming flesh products differently than those on slightly more abstract products that were produced by flesh of an animal that lives on to produce more for its owners, I’d think differently
I think my conclusion is that if people are being respectful in asserting comparisons of industrial animal agriculture to the holocaust and not being flippant then it should be allowed (ie keep the flippancy/attempts-at-dunking stuff confined to vegancirclejerk or c/vegan)
Final disclaimer: I am not an expert on rhetoric or persuasion, but due to my grandpa’s obsession with the question of how could Hashem allow the holocaust, I’ve been to way too many holocaust museums multiple times, and I’ve seen far more documentaries on the subject than anybody should have to
Just wanna add that I’ve always thought that the terms “carnist” and “bloodmouth” were always pretty lame, despite supporting veganism myself.
I’m fine with carnist. Accurate, a little disparaging, gets the point across. Bloodmouth sounds like a slur used against vampires in a young adult fantasy novel or something though
Some points:
I’m Indian, and part of me sometimes doesn’t mind the “reddit” feel of this place, since I’ve been using reddit for more than 10 years and was radicalized online, but hexbear does have this white online leftist veneer. And it does make me feel like I should be more of an observer rather than a participator, sometimes. I think another poster hit the nail on the head about trying to recruit from online spaces that aren’t reddit. I disagree with that poster about twitter tho, since I think there’s plenty of PoC communists using twitter.
The site’s culture and choice of memes (especially the wojacks, even tho I enjoy them lmao) is very white. Might be an unpopular idea but I think injecting some seriousness, education, and effortposting, and cutting back on the shitposts and chan lite culture is a good idea. I say this, because, while there’s nothing wrong with having unserious/casual culture (I personally enjoy it), we should contend with the fact that hexbear’s culture appeals to and is created predominantly by white people. So if hexbear’s point is to have like a lighthearted place to hang out, of course PoC comrades aren’t going to want to hang out since it’s not their culture! But don’t get me wrong I def don’t think the solution is to just remove or transplant hexbear’s culture.
Posting stuff from hoodcommunist.org. It’s a big communist Black/African blog and their writing has never been posted here lol (tbh I don’t mind posting them). Reposting blogs/writing/poetry from comrades in the 3rd world. Also repost PoC orgs like Black Alliance for Peace. Get real organizers and revolutionaries, or revolutionary orgs in the streets to do AMA’s here, and/or feature them in posts (while still maintaining hexbear’s independence of course).
I think it’s fine that a lot of site users are Americans and post about America, maybe because I am american as well lol, but there should be more posting and education about 3rd world liberation struggles. More emphasis, nuance, care about and for the Black and Brown world. What’s that, you don’t know anything about that? All the more reason to educate ourselves.
Sometimes it feels like when Black and Brown revolutionaries are discussed here, they are treated by people here as either just A) static tokens, where white leftists will like worship them without being able to appraise them critically or see them for their flaws and nuance or B) completely unknown, and just disregarded. An example of A is like you might have a thread about Thomas Sankara or Fred Hampton, where someone will be able to list all their accomplishments and how cool they were, but no one is really interested in, or able to criticize and see their faults. When you treat groups and people like this, it’s kinda tokenizing. there were very serious faults and flaws with these revolutionaries, and a lot of these other movements that we need to take seriously and criticize openly, not just bask in victories from decades ago. As for B, one of the largest and most advanced revolutions taking place rn is the Naxalite revolution of India. As far as Ik there’s never been any discussion on it. Here’s an hour long video covering it from Marxist Paul: https://youtu.be/exd74uNJaeQ?si=cCkpB9odCHHsGsLc There’s seriously plenty for white people to learn, study, and discuss from 3rd world liberation movements.
these are GREAT points all around, thank you. i do think there are a lot of people who post about Malcom x, Sankara, and the black panthers generally but are not interested in going in depth on their beliefs and tactics. and the point about critiques is very important (i have faced weird amounts of push back for critiquing the misogyny of certain black nationalist groups, and how this misogyny weakened the project of liberation, people wanna act like the 60s were 200 years ago) and i do agree that we should learn more about MODERN poc projects movement and individual activist, history is constantly being made around us. i really enjoy what @Nakoichi@hexbear.net has been posting about the chunka luta have been doing! we should do more stuff like that. thank you for your response!!
but there should be more posting and education about 3rd world liberation struggles. More emphasis, nuance, care about and for the Black and Brown world. What’s that, you don’t know anything about that? All the more reason to educate ourselves.
I’ve been trying to make the news megathreads more of an environment for this kind of thing. I’ve seen feedback that it’s a great place for non-Americans to hang out and talk about what’s going on outside of America and it’s really heartwarming. Obviously at a certain point if all we did was history-posting then it wouldn’t a “news” megathread but having historical context is simply very necessary to be able to talk about current-day issues, e.g. we have a great user @LargePenis@hexbear.net whose posts we all love to see, who talks about Syria and Lebanon and other places in the region, and the impact of the Syrian War and how that’s affected the region today and geopolitical struggles between Iran and the Zionist entity, and so on.
I’m very glad to say I have had zero issues regarding my PoC-ness on Hexbear, everyone on this site is pretty cool and respectful in my experience so far.
I’m just a regular cis heterosexual dork-ass black dude. I don’t quite remember how I stumbled upon this site, but I would imagine part of the reason there aren’t many many PoC comrades on the site is that it’s kinda of a werido internet site.
I mean weirdo in a good way. Sadly Hexbear.net is not even in the same galaxy of rotation sites Katz visit, PoC or otherwise. Personally I don’t see Hexbear as unwelcoming to PoC (though I will say the 12 levels of irony posting can be abrasive at times), however I will say it is niche (but in a cool good way).
My only real suggestion would be to just engage with more PoC posts in general. I learn a lot of stuff from reading the c/latam and c/indigenous for example. I think the most welcoming thing we can do is just treat PoC stuff with the same respect we treat anything else. That’s just my opinion.
My sort of “be the change you want to see” thing is just reading and listening to other PoC posters as much as I can and trying to not to be “that guy” when black stuff comes up.
This is not intended as an attack on our white users. I will say that Hexbear gives off a distinctly white vibe. Personally, I don’t have an issue with that since I spend a lot of time around white individuals and in predominantly white spaces. However, it might make other POC feel initially unwelcome. The solution could be to onboard more POC members and moderators.
yeah i feel i aid in that, not sure what to change tbh and i don’t want to openly advertise that i’m not…
i did grow up in an imperial core/periphery country, i think that would explain it a bit, i’d like to be able to code switch when appropriate to make things easier or amenable to poc comrades