Trying to label everything in concrete terms like this does nobody any favors.
I know plenty of very high earners that are just stupid with money and blow it as fast as they get it. People making $300k+ and living paycheck to paycheck with no savings or retirement because they bought two $100k+ cars, overextended themselves on buying a house, spend hundreds a week on restaurants and shopping, etc.
Are they the “working poor”?
As far as working class goes, sure if you want to break it down into only a two class structure then yeah. You’re either working class or owner class. That ignores a lot of nuance though within the working class. There’s quite a bit of difference between someone at the bottom of the working class and someone like a high earning professional that still needs to work, but has a much higher standard of living.
People who make high incomes from wages/salary are still working class, as they don’t own the capital. However the higher the income (relative to necessary living expenses, mind you) the more incentives they have to have interests more aligned with the Capitalist class and can become “class traitors”.
But anyhow, 99% of the people who will read this post probably aren’t making $300k
There’s quite a bit of difference between someone at the bottom of the working class and someone like a high earning professional that still needs to work, but has a much higher standard of living.
True. But they have much more in common with each other than they have with the owner class. We’re often fighting amongst ourselves while the billionaires are laughing all the way to the bank.
That really depends. A landlord with 10-20 units and a management company may not have to work, but they have a lot more in common with the working class than they do the Waltons or Buffets in the owner class.
In terms of net worth, sure. 10-20 million dollars is pretty much a billion dollars away from being a billion. But in terms of paying taxes? Unearned income pays the least in taxes. Psychology? It depends. If they have big mortgages and have to do a lot of the work themselves and be really careful with money? Then they might not feel rich (and may actually have a low net worth). If they own it all outright and have a employees take care of it all? That’s pretty different.
Having to work to survive is the default state of nature, unless you are a baby or an elder. It doesn’t mean you’re oppressed.
What about our modern world makes you think humanity exsists in a default state of nature?
We don’t live in a post-scarcity society, so the rules of nature still apply. People need food, water, shelter, energy and someone has to work to provide those things.
My fellow Lemmy user, we dont live in a post-scarity world because profits matter more than people in our Capitalist Society. We could live in a post-scarity world, but that would come at the cost of profits for the 1% who do effectively zero work.
And yet, there’s a class, that neither me or you belong to, who dosen’t need to work a day of their life to survive.
And yet many of them do anyway. And what percent of that class has never worked a day in their life? Most of them probably have years or decades of experience in their career and had to work hard to get to where they’re at.
Maybe you didn’t read the entirely of OP picture. “If you HAVE to work to survive you are working class”. Some of them still work, to keep their power and privileges, or to pursue their personal needs on the arts and other alike.
I like how things are defaulting to the US as if that’s the whole world.
I’m dead sure the traffic Lemmy instances overall see have America as the top country.
She’s probably American and talking about America. We shouldn’t have to qualify every single thing we say, if it doesn’t apply to you then it doesn’t apply. It’s certainly worthwhile to the discussion to add your own experiences in places it doesn’t apply, but just pointing out that she didn’t explicitly say she’s talking about America (even though she very nearly did) isn’t super relevant.
Why do we keep trying to pervert defined terms?
The working poor are those who work at least 27 weeks a year and still have income below the poverty line.
Because that definition is woefully inadequate to describe the conditions of people experiencing poverty.
I’m not sure how broadening it to include like half the country helps them?
Lots of people live paycheck to paycheck because they have to - other people live paycheck to paycheck because they want to drive a BMW and have a house 50% larger they can afford. They’re not the same.
There is a range of working class. Some get paid more for their work. They are still working to survive.
As many of the higher wager earners disagree with how the lesser wage earners spend their meager earnings as the less wager earners disagree with the high wager earners.
This is crab mentality. You need to unlearn yours or accept yourself as part of the problem. Some may have larger claws than others but we are all crabs in the same bucket.
Fast forward a few years and the size of house I will be able to afford is a shoebox.
I disagree. You are NOT poor just because you end up without money at the months end.
My brother is an perfect example. He earns A TON of cash every month. Nearly as much as I, my fiance, my Dad and Mum combined.
And still he lives from payday to payday without any reserves. Because he can not handle money.
He eats in restaurants at least ten times a week. At least twice in highest luxury restaurants. He has leased four different cars in three years, none less than €2000 per month. Lifes in an absurdetly huge penthouse. Buys his girl friend so much bullshit she gave me a €5.000 collier because she ran out of space and I drove her home after parties a couple of times. But still he asked Pa and me several times for fuel money at the end of the month.
See, if he would live like I do he could live two years from one months earnings.
So you think I am poor I guess?
Nope. I own a huge plot of land. I am going to build my own house and I am talking about a nice big house made from stone at the gates of Munich where land is expensive and houses are even more expensive. I have paid generous amounts of pension insurance. If I would stop working in five years when I am 35 I would be a made girl and could live from my savings although on a low level.
If that is how he spends than he can clearly afford to miss a paycheck. Its not the same as having spend it all.
When you cant ask the landlord to pay rent next month because you already had to ask last month is when you cant afford to miss it.
It would really suck for your borther and he wont keep up the lifestyle but at the end of that month when the next paycheck does arrive he is going to be just fine.
Multiple restaurants in a week sounds like he can afford to let someone else manage his money and still have enough pocketmoney for his vices. He should Look into it.
You have no idea how hard it is to get rid of an unwilling renter as a landlord in Germany. In the event of rent arrears of two months’ rent or more, the landlord can terminate the lease without notice. Only then can he or she file an action for eviction which can take another two to four months. And if the tenant only pays the arrears for one month, the cycle starts all over again. I have seen people dragging this out for five years and when leaving the premise they left behind a battlefield. And absurdetly I am not even allowed to burn or sell their shit because it is still their properties so I have to store it, show it to a bailiff for evaluation, sell the few things worth anything, then store it for another two years and only then I am legally allowed to burn it.
(And yes, my brother missed his rent a couple of times but always caught up after one or two months. Given how expensive rents in Germany are we are not talking about small sums. A 1960th 84m² apartment in a suburb is around €1500, a 1870th 70m² apartment in the centre of munich is around €3500 per month. The penthouse my brother lives in… just short of five digits. If he ever gets seriously sick he will go broke within two months and will take decades to pay of the debts. Again, he has no long term insurrances, no savings, nothing at all. And social wellfare and social health care of a couple of €100 will only bring him so far…)
I don’t want to dismiss the challenges and difficulties you speak off. All experiences are valid and personal. Yet i feel like there is a disconnect here where i don’t think you gravity of what is meant with not being able to afford.
I don’t live in Germany but just the fact that there is social wellfard and that you speak of him still having a couple of hundred says plenty of the privileges compared to the people this post is actually all above who may not even have that money after working. (Not everyone on the globe is granted fair and legal Working conditions and rights)
I assume with renter protections and your brother having a a good job missing a payment for him can be solved with an annoying call to the landlord who can reasonably expect that your brother has the means to make enough money.
For people who love in slums, who can barely Afford their home ij the slum when they do have money and sometimes need to chose between heat, food and rent the relation with the landlord who is routinely dealing with tenants who dont have the means to pay.
Also, it sounds like you care about your brother and you yourself ard doing reasonably well. Imagine that he does end up jobless with no home or food. Would you or some other family not help him out? Poverty is a systematic issue, there are exceptions but most poor families come from poor families. If they end up on the street and there is no wellfare that cares they and their kids may just die on the street.
That is the distinction that i believe should Be made here when we talk about not being able to afford. Its nog about hardship or financial ruin. Its about the difference between barely surviving and not surviving.
