A common trope I see in atheist circles are people (often claiming to be atheists themselves, and I’m sure many genuinely are) going around chiding other atheists for being mean, rude, or otherwise disrespectful to believers. It’s counterproductive! It doesn’t work! It paints us in a bad light!
Often enough, these criticisms are an example of concern trolling, someone telling us what to do because they don’t agree with what we’re trying to do. Greta Christina correctly pointed out that when they do us, they’re trying to get us to lay down the weapons we use to fight back against what’s done to us. They’re trying to get us to surrender our power.
Atheists are often caustic, sarcastic, and generally unpleasant with believers. I built up quite a reputation for snark in my days on reddit, and I have no doubt I’ll continue that tradition on lemmy. Why is that? Because reciprocity is a fundamental aspect of morality. We give back what we get, and in places like the US atheists are not treated very well. So a lot of atheists will either hide or they’ll fight back. Personally, I switch between them depending on my mood and circumstances. I also observe that for centuries, atheists did their best to stay quiet and get along without any reduction in the abuse they received. This quote comes from Madalyn Murray O’Hair, the founder of American Atheists:
I’ll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.
And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.
So what’s the point in being a dick to believers? It can have more utility than people realize. Sometimes being a dick to dickish people helps contain them. Sometimes there’s utility in tactical dickishness. This is a problem that needs to be attacked from multiple different angles, not just the one that you think best.
I think Daniel Dennett said it best:
I listen to all these complaints about rudeness and intemperateness, and the opinion that I come to is that there is no polite way of asking somebody: have you considered the possibility that your entire life has been devoted to a delusion? But that’s a good question to ask. Of course we should ask that question and of course it’s going to offend people. Tough.
I’m not interested in unconverting believers, but neither am I interested in enabling or endorsing their beliefs. While I’m not interested in participating in their rituals either, I will go to weddings and funerals.
That said, there’s a piece of my mind that wonders how anyone with average intelligence or better can possibly believe in this fantasy BS. It just makes no sense to me.
So when I’m faced with someone who’s deeply religious, the only way I can reconcile it in my head is to assume that they’re cognitively challenged.
And I really don’t have a lot of patience with idiots. I suppose I’m not very good at hiding this.
It’s a social norm. Many practicing catholics I know don’t actually believe the bullshit. But church is where they met their wives. It’s where their children make friends. It’s where they sing in a choir or play in a band. It’s part of their social circle.
That was always my take: a social club with some weird shit grandfathered in.
And honestly, the weird shit is fascinating. Viewing Christian, and especially Catholic/Orthodox rituals through the lens of traditional, well, spell casting I guess, really makes it deeply interesting behaviour. Here are rituals that possibly pre-date Christianity itself, living today, thousands of years later.
If it wasn’t for all of the psychological abuse, the child abuse, and the freely wielded political power, it’d be a fun little twee cultural artifact.
Wow that’s a lot of words desperately attempting to justify why you’re an asshole.
Every atheist I know is perfectly nice and nothing like you. I’ve never heard anyone describe all atheists as assholes, just the loud obnoxious ones that preach their edgy middle school rhetoric at every possible opportunity. Kinda like you.
You’re not clever, you haven’t figured it out, you’ve just managed to devise a poorly founded justification as to why people think you’re an asshole, instead of just admitting to yourself it’s because you’re an asshole.
You need help.
And I guess it’s good to see r/atheism is exactly as cringe as its always been.
And don’t bother replying, I’m not going to argue with a bunch of 14 year olds.
Sure, I’m an asshole. I never claimed otherwise. But I’m not always an asshole. That’s the point I’m trying to make.
To assert that it is never appropriate to be an asshole is just as bad as always being an asshole. I’m not trying to justify why I’m an asshole. It’s part of who I am and I accept it. But if you’re going to tell me that I’m wrong because you don’t like how I approach this issue, all you’re going to get from me are headpats and a hearty “good for you!”
There’s no single way to approach this. Always being nice doesn’t work. Always being a dick doesn’t work either. Finding some middle ground is essential, because letting believers have their way at our expense doesn’t do anyone any favors. Sometimes we have to stand up and stick up for our rights, and that’s how change is created.
You don’t have to agree. Just don’t expect me to show you much respect if you get in my way.
And don’t bother replying, I’m not going to argue
Spoken like a true Theist. “I’m going to make my argument and you just have to accept it without debate because I’m better than you.”
By all means, fight fire with fire, but you don’t get to fight historical fire with fire against people who never wronged you or tried to convert you. The only actual fact is that you don’t know any better that there is not a god/creator than they know that there is and vice versa. Neither a strong belief that god does or does not exist is supported by logic, reason, or science. The only logical conclusion is that we don’t know. That also makes the often touted (and childish) belief that atheists are smarter than theists for not believing a non-starter. You don’t know that you’re right and neither do they.
I’m not saying that I’m smarter because I’m an atheist. Atheism doesn’t mean I’m automatically a better person. Atheism isn’t a magic spell that makes me smarter, stronger, faster, more moral or ethical than someone who believes in a god. Atheism challenges me to reconsider questions that I used to consider sufficiently answered by religion such as science, morality and ethics but that doesn’t guarantee I’m going to do a good job with it. I am still the same person I was when I was standing behind the podium leading the church congregation in singing religious hymns, I just no longer believe what religions claim about reality and I don’t participate in church any longer.
Atheism doesn’t mean I know there are no gods. I suspect there aren’t, because religious claims about gods and reality don’t stand up to scrutiny. The more excuses you have to make for why reality doesn’t work the way you insist it should, the less inclined I am to believe you know what you’re talking about. Arguing for a prime mover or appealing to consequences doesn’t convince me either. I’m intellectually honest enough to say that I don’t have concrete knowledge that there are no gods the way I know there’s no money in my wallet, but not being able to prove there are no gods isn’t enough for me to believe that there are. Wanting to believe there are gods is no more useful than wanting there to be money in my wallet. It’s still a claim that requires validation, not a default assumption.
The point here is simply to push back on people who would concern troll me if I’m less than polite to people who would happily lock me away or force me to church because I dare to disagree with them. Being mean to someone who never brought up their religion isn’t cool. Submitting to or otherwise ignoring people who would abuse me for not attending their church is likewise not cool. Someone needs to stand up and point out that a secular society doesn’t allow religious beliefs to be used as justification to be dicks. And sometimes you have to be a dick to get that point across.
I agree with almost all of this except for the validation part. The belief that something created the entire system we are in can neither be validated nor proven false. Even if a being created a planet in front of us, we couldn’t know if they were just an alien being millions of years more technologically advanced than us. We still could never prove whether we are or are not a fancy snow globe or ant farm in someone’s office. That’s not a reason to believe we are, but it’s a reason to choose to believe based on the evidence we have. For some, the splendor of the universe is enough to make them decide that there must be a greater intelligence at work, for others it’s not. Neither conclusion is wrong or right, the evidence is inconclusive AND there will never be proof either way…so in a sense that’s the purest choice we have. Waiting for a proof that cannot exist is not as logical and reasonable as many seem to think. It’s a default stance of science applied to the one question that science will never be able to answer.
The belief that something created the entire system we are in can neither be validated nor proven false.
If it can’t be validated, then there’s no reason to assume that it’s true. The burden of proof never lies with the skeptic. To demonstrate why, if I must prove that a god doesn’t exist then you must also use the same evidence for it to prove that I am not that god. Feel free to try.
That’s not a reason to believe we are, but it’s a reason to choose to believe based on the evidence we have.
I mean, that’s a choice you can make, but it’s not a good reason to believe. It’s not a justifiable reason. The god of the gaps argument is considered a fallacy.
Waiting for a proof that cannot exist is not as logical and reasonable as many seem to think. It’s a default stance of science applied to the one question that science will never be able to answer.
That’s why there’s a concept in science called “not even wrong.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
If you can’t answer it one way or another, then there’s no reason to take it seriously.
I personally always considered god belief on two axes… Axises? Axii? Gnostic and Agnostic on one and theist and atheist on the other. For those that don’t know, gnostic means you’re absolutely sure your belief is true, and Agnostic is the opposite, you’re not sure or don’t know.
There are both gnostic theists and gnostic atheists who are both equally sure they have it right.
If I had to describe myself I would probably be just Agnostic. I don’t think the Judeo-Christian idea of God exists, but I know that I can never know for sure, and maybe there is a higher power out there, even if it’s nowhere near as high a power as the bible would claim. I very much so resonate more with pagan pantheons where Gods are fallible, have weaknesses, and even fail to defeat mortals from time to time.
This is exactly my conceptualization of belief as well, including the 2 axes. It’s conceptualized as the spectrum of theistic probability but you could just as easily count the center as agnostic and the poles as gnostic. As an agnostic, theists and atheists don’t bother me at all until they start heading further from the center, into pretending that their belief system is correct, more conclusive, more intelligent, etc. I’d defend either theists or atheists from the gnostics in the opposite camp.
“When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo. This is also stated in Hitchens’s razor, which declares that “what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence.” Carl Sagan proposed a related criterion – “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” – which is known as the Sagan standard.”
If I claim that unicorns, leprechauns and Bigfoot exists; it is then my responsibility to prove it. There is absolutely to reason not to dismiss such outrageous claims.
Same applies to god and religions.
I’m familiar with the line of reasoning, I’m also familiar with why it doesn’t apply here. If I said “I believe God exists” that is very different in our language than "I believe in God, or in the existence of God. We use the word “in” here to qualify that we are saying that we believe in something as an idea that we cannot prove. It’s a subtle but extremely important distinction. I would have the same bit of issue with someone saying they know God exists. They don’t, period. I would have the same issue with someone trying to convince you that God exists. It’s not their place, you can make your own mind up what to believe. Neither a firm belief nor a firm non-belief are rooted in logic and reason. These are personal decisions based on internal logic and internal reasoning. In the face of eternally inconclusive evidence, it’s not irrational to make a choice to believe in one or the other, existence or non-existence…it is irrational however to believe one made a choice so right that they should convince others to follow suit.
Atheism is complicated because both those who simply do not hold a belief either way and those who firmly believe there is no God/creator/whatever fly the same flag. As an agnostic I have no issue with either the theist or the atheist, I take issue with the ones in either camp who pretend they made the superior choice of unprovable beliefs.
I believe that most atheists will leave believers be until they try to preach to them. Personally I don’t mind believers believing in anything they want to. But I will react when they try to convince me or others about their beliefs
I don’t suffer fools & I consider “religious & loud about it” to be the just that.