Now I Am Become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds — J. Robert Oppenheimer

Oppenheimer famously quoted this from The Bhagavad Geeta in the context of the nuclear bomb. The way this sentence is structured feels weird to me. “Now I am Death” or “Now I have become Death” sound much more natural in English to me.

Was he trying to simulate some formulation in Sanskrit that is not available in the English language?

204 points
*

He was using some fancier and older form of English. I believe it is grammatically correct, we just don’t use those forms anymore. The first translation of the Gita is from 1785 and it is one of the most translated Asian texts. Famously, every translator places emphasis and projects their own personal worldview unto the text. Though Oppenheimer actually could read and had read the Bhagavad Gita in its original Sanskrit, so he was just giving it his own personal twist.

permalink
report
reply
23 points

If “I have become” and “I am” are both valid translations then “I am become” seems like fairly minor literary license.

I think it sounds cooler. Powerful beings are not supposed to sound ordinary.

permalink
report
parent
reply
121 points
*

It’s from English, not Sanskrit. More specifically, an archaic English feature, where you’d use “be” instead of “have” for the present tense, if the main verb denotes a change of state (such as “become”). Note how “I have become Death” sounds perfectly fine for modern readers.

Odds are that Oppenheimer was quoting either an archaic translation Bhagavad Gita, or one using archaic language (this is typical for religious texts).

Also give this a check. English used to follow similar rules for be/have as German does for sein/haben.

[Shameless community promotion: check !linguistics@lemmy.ml ! This sort of question would fit like a glove there.]

permalink
report
reply
15 points

I think he translated it himself. It’s an archaic text though, so translating it in modern english would also be weird probably.

permalink
report
parent
reply
15 points

Thank you for sharing the Linguistics community. Subscribed!

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points
*

where you’d use “be” instead of “have” for the present tense, if the main verb denotes a change of state (such as “become”).

But in that example isn’t the “am” replacing the “have”?

I have become death

I am become death

permalink
report
parent
reply
18 points
*

Yes. The conjugates for “to be” are: I am, You are, He/she is, etc.

permalink
report
parent
reply
7 points

If you think about it the fact that modern English uses “Have” in this context (primarily describing something you own) is actually weirder than “Am” (something you are)

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

It’s almost like a different word, a hononym. To have and to have done something in the past. Neither being nor possessing really works for the “have done”. Being works for become because become has being as a part of its meaning as well as a transition from some previous thing that was before.

Though both are used similarly. I have ran. I am running. I will run. I guess have is still the odd one out since will is future tense for am. Though was also works. I was running. But was is more specific than have, it feels like “I was running” is a part of a narrative that includes a specific time, while “I have ran” doesn’t require anything else. It’s like you possess the previous action of running, so maybe it is apt. Language is funny.

permalink
report
parent
reply
1 point

to be is an irregular verb that takes the forms am, are, and is in the present tense. to become is a different verb which has the forms become, and becomes.

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points

Can you make “All Your Base Are Belong to Us” correct with some linguistics magic?

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

Linguistics is mostly descriptive, mind you; it doesn’t “make” things correct, it explains what happens.

That said, “are belong” wouldn’t work. “Belong” indicates possession, not a change of state, so even under older grammatical rules you’d still need to use “have” with it. And you’d need to use it in the past participle (belonged), not the base form (belong). Note that Oppenheimer’s quote doesn’t have this problem because the past participle of “become” is still “become”.

And the present perfect wouldn’t even make sense here. CATS is not saying “those bases used to belong to us, and they still do”; it’s more like “those bases used to be yours, but now they’re ours”. You’d need to use the simple present here, “belong” - “now all your bases belong to us”, without an auxiliary, with the “now” highlighting that this wasn’t true in the past but it is in the current time.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

Ah maybe I can learn german understand half the memes on lenny

permalink
report
parent
reply

The original line comes from Chapter 11 Verse 32 of the Bhagavad Gita.

कालोऽस्मि लोकक्षयकृत्प्रवृद्धो

(kālo ’smi loka-kṣhaya-kṛit pravṛiddho)

The most literal translation would be: “I am mighty Time, the source of destruction of the worlds.” But काल can alternatively mean Death, and it looks like that’s the interpretation Oppenheimer chose. The verb here is a simple “am”, as in “I am Time/Death”. So the “am become” part is not due to any feature of Sanskrit itself.

But people usually take some liberty while translating poetry. Given the context (i.e. Krishna convincing Arjuna to fight, and showing him his true form), it makes sense to use “I have become” or even “I am become” (as explained in the other comments, it’s grammatically correct).

permalink
report
reply
25 points

Thanks for sharing your knowledge of ancient Hindu scripture, SexualPolytope.

permalink
report
parent
reply
14 points

We need a r/rimjobsteve community on lemmy

permalink
report
parent
reply
9 points

Great explanation. Do you have any formal education in Sanskrit or the gita?

permalink
report
parent
reply

I did learn Sanskrit in school for a few years (I’m Indian). I have some personal interest in the scriptures; although admittedly, I mostly read 12-16th century Bengali scriptures (e.g. শ্রীকৃষ্ণকীর্তন, বৈষ্ণব পদাবলী etc.). But I do know some bits about the Sanskrit scriptures as well.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

I knew the reference but not the language. Thank you for the explication!

permalink
report
parent
reply
72 points

Am/is become is an old English biblical phrasing and the material he was translating is religious so he probably used that style to invoke the religious nature of the text. He was very well read so this was certainly a specific stylistic choice on his part.

permalink
report
reply
11 points

No one would bat an eye at similar phrases such as “I am made anew”

permalink
report
parent
reply
13 points

Because that’s grammatically correct by today’s standards. “Become” would typically be in the context of “have become” instead of “am become” these days.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

Nobody would bat an eye if it was “have become” or “am becoming” either. I don’t know when it changed but I think it’s just a small change in how the word is used in modern vs old English.

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points
Deleted by creator
permalink
report
parent
reply
66 points
*

I was curious about this last week and found an article that provides some other examples of this type of usage:

“The translation’s grammatical archaism made it even more powerful, resonating with lines in Tennyson (“I am become a name, for always roaming with a hungry heart”), Shakespeare (“I am come to know your pleasure”), and the Bible (“I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness”).”

https://www.openculture.com/2023/07/j-robert-oppenheimer-recites-the-line-now-i-am-become-death-the-destroyer-of-worlds.html

The article also provides some commentary from a scholar about how to translate the original Sanskrit that Oppenheimer is referencing.

Edit: This article is referenced in the above article, and provides some interesting insight into why Oppenheimer was thinking of this quote. His situation was very similar to the situation of Arjuna, who speaks the original phrase in the ancient story. It really gives some additional insight into how many different mental levels Oppenheimer must have been able to conceptualize.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/science/of-oppenheimer-and-the-bhagwat-gita-lead-correcting-intro-april-22-is-the-113th-birth-anniversary-of-robert-oppenheimer/articleshow/58315807.cms?from=mdr

permalink
report
reply

No Stupid Questions

!nostupidquestions@lemmy.world

Create post

No such thing. Ask away!

!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others’ questions on various topics.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.

All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.



Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That’s it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it’s in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.

If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.



Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.

If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.

Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.

Credits

Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!

The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!

Community stats

  • 9.4K

    Monthly active users

  • 3.3K

    Posts

  • 129K

    Comments