Running With Scissors:
Key reselling websites hurt indie developers like us. There are many ways to obtain our games and we STILL prefer piracy over people buying from those websites.
Illegaly obtained keys are a source of money for scammers and it could even affect you as the customer in some cases.
NiX:
I love you guys and postal series, but I’m not made of money, if I can get a game for cheaper I’d rather pay less than more.
Running With Scissors:
Which is why we’re telling you to pirate our games instead of paying a scammer who will cost us money and probably even get your key revoked
Our games are cheap right now through official sites. Is saving a few cents worth lowering the chances for releasing another POSTAL game?
NiX:
Isn’t pirating illegal? You want your fans get fines and shit? Now they are on sale so I might pick up some but normally i still rather get the game of g2a for cheaper
Running With Scissors:
You can’t get fines if the owners of the IP give you permission to download.
Just know that by getting on G2A, we not only get no money, we also have to pay for the chargeback, that’s the core of the problem and it means no new games in the future and no more RWS
It’s interesting how scared some people are of pirating when the amount of people charged for downloading/streaming is so few it’s barely significant.
I used to pirate games and software. Then came the ransomware, and the crypto stealers.
So I’m afraid of pirating certain things, but not because of the IP issues.
Which is why when I made a game once upon a time I released checksums for the official files. I wish Running With Scissors would consider doing so as well.
Just finding a bittorrent client without giving my machine digital herpes gutworms is non-trivial these days.
qBittorrent is what I’ve been using since uTorrent went to shit. Well there was a brief period where I used Transmission but it’s so feature-limited.
Deluge and Transmission have been good to me. I don’t need all the additional features of qBittorrent personally.
If you live in a country where VPNs are needed in order to avoid fines, you may want to use qBittorrent for its ability to bind itself to a VPN though.
I believe Deluge has the option too, but not as convenient as qBittorrent? I’m not sure.
I swear everyone here is missing the point.
The issue is scammers buy keys with stolen or fraudulent credit card info, then they sell those keys via key resellers like G2A to make money.
Meanwhile the original sale gets disputed, and the sellers are hit with a chargeback, which means not only do the developers have to pay back the money they made, but they also LOSE money because of chargeback fees that credit card companies levy on them for the disputed transaction.
It doesn’t matter that they can void the key that was fraudulently purchased, they still lost money on that sale because of the chargeback fee. That’s why they’re saying “please at least pirate it”, because in that case, while they’re not making a sale, they’re at least not losing money on the transaction.
Hold on a minute. Developers need to generate the keys so third parties can resell them. And they can revoke or disable them if they were obtained fraudulently.
What is the point of all this? Just disable the keys and fuck the scammers.
Ain’t as simple as “just disable them”. G2A acquires keys through buy-one-get-two deals, using stolen credit cards, money laundering, stolen keys (mass mailing the devs for “preview” keys, which they then flip on G2A) etc.
So there’s no way to know the origin of keys in G2A. By the time you know it’s stolen keys, they’ve been sold out, and G2A has a notorious history of not giving a fuck about the situation.
You could just arbitrarily disable all keys, but you’d affect >90% legitimate customers.
They don’t know the keys on G2A and the like unless they buy them themselves. And these unauthorized key sellers aren’t in the business to cooperate with them, since the money laundering is their bread and butter.
They don’t know the keys on G2A
But they should. Someone at RWS generated those keys and then sold them to resellers. Even if they don’t personally keep track of the keys, Steam probably does.
I guess they don’t want to affect users who already paid for a key even though they have the right to do so.
Honestly, I’ve had keys revoked from my account before, and it sucks to waste money on scammers, but any rational person would understand that’s not their fault.
How would they know which keys are on G2A? They’re bought through an intermediary before being resold on G2A.
Yeah… I hadn’t heard of G2A before now, but after reading up a bit, it seems like a bit of a convenient scapegoat for developers.
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/g2a-and-wube-software-settle-usd40-000-chargeback-dispute
Some quotes
The debate over the site was triggered by No More Robots founder Mike Rose, who claimed it was better for gamers to pirate titles than buy from G2A since “devs don’t see a penny either way.”
Vlambeer co-founder Rami Ismail agreed, adding: “These sites cost us so much potential dev time in customer service, investigating fake key requests, figuring out credit card chargebacks, and more.”
As the discourse escalated into a petition to stop G2A from allowing the sale of indie games, the marketplace responded with its 10x chargeback offer in an attempt to address these concerns.
Lack of response has frequently been an issue for G2A. To date, Factorio remains the only studio to challenge the firm’s offer of 10x chargebacks, and when G2A suggested a potential keyblocker tool for developers, only 19 companies registered interest.
Klonan acknowledges Wube’s role in how G2A sellers were able to obtain codes for Factorio. These codes were purchased through the game’s official website, which was previously less secure than the likes of Steam or Itch.io, although did give Wube detailed records of purchases and chargebacks it could compare with G2A’s audit.
The company also offers a free Steam key with website purchases, many of which are “probably flipped on G2A”, although as these are obtained legally it becomes harder to challenge these transactions.
Klonan notes that after Wube switched to using Humble’s widget on its site and refraining from “giving out tons of keys for giveaways to dodgy, often fake, influencers,” the fraudulent purchases “stopped completely.”
“In the end, contacting G2A is treating a symptom of people stealing keys,” he says. "The best way to combat that is to cut it at the source.
I hate these guys just tell you to “use common sense” without explaining any shits. Your comment does not contribute to the discussion at all.
No that’s not the issue. That’s not why they’re saying pirate the game. The issue is they’re also getting hit by chargeback fees from those fraudulent sales.
Does the negative opinion of key resellers point to G2A and Kingpin that seem to put you with an unnamed reseller, a bit like eBay? Or does it also include discount resellers like cdkeys and instant-gaming?
Any site that allows customers to resell is a culprit of supporting the grey market. Even if they vet their resellers, you’ll get the occassional hacked accounts, and legitimate resellers “turning” rogue after reaching their target reputation.
Use https://isthereanydeal.com to find actual discounts. Or buy on Steam. Or pirate it. Never support grey market.
Fanatical is not a reseller, right? That’s what I’ve used and it’s never failed on me once so far, across years. I’ve never touched G2A, etc. due to used-key concerns.
It’d be nice if software license ownership/reselling could be secure and decentralized. Here’s an idea on using distributed ledger (blockchain) for that: https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/06/is-there-potential-for-blockchain-in-copyright-and-licensing-applications/?guccounter=1 Monkey NFTs are stupid, but there are other assets, like software or other copyright licenses that could be bought and sold as smart contracts.
The problem is rather the opposite. The keys are secure and their sale is decentralized, which gives limited control over them. People generate the keys with stolen credit cards, and then resell them. The Postal devs are basically admitting they are giving up trying to actually go after the thieves, but it is genuinely hard to figure out which keys are legit and which are stolen, especially when it’s someone else selling them. All you’re proposing is to make it impossible to revoke a key even if you know it’s illegal.
The actual way to prevent this theft would be to forbid merchants from generating keys at all, and go to a fully centralized model like Steam and Epic generally use.
What? Steam generates keys, does it not?
Also, what if usage of keys was required to be publicly declared on the chain? That would instantly stop all of this.
As of 8½ years ago, you can’t buy keys from Steam, although they still allow developers to generate keys for use on other sites that still use them.
How would requiring keys to be declared help? The people using the keys are all innocent (or at least largely ignorant) buyers. Steam can already see who those are, but that doesn’t stop the sale or say who sold them.
