Stop emissions. There’s a lot of negative effects to society for doing that, but that’s the only real answer at this point. It also isn’t going to avoid decades of worsening conditions, but there isn’t a solution for that. All we can really do is stop continuing the damage we’re still doing, even after decades of knowing we were doing it.
Stop emissions.
A simple sounding answer that is almost impossible to put into practice in a short period of time.
You can’t simply go cold turkey.
Far too many people would suffer, and mostly the people who aren’t the worst causes of the problem.
And even if any government tried, the effort would be delayed and watered down by decades of lawsuits and attacks from basically everyone.
It also isn’t going to avoid decades of worsening conditions, but there isn’t a solution for that.
Various geoengineering techniques are solutions for that. We should be studying those in greater detail.
Geoengineering will have its own issues that may make things worse in the long run, but the worst effect will be it leveraged as a reason to continue business as usual. That’s why I simply said we have to stop emissions. If we can’t do that, then there’s only one direction we can go (and are going, faster each year).
But as you said, stopping emissions won’t avoid decades of worsening conditions. I think actually stopping those decades of worsening conditions is more important than a hypothetical “moral hazard” concern.
Frankly, this argument always bothered me. When someone is sick you try to treat both the underlying cause and the symptoms. It would be morally bankrupt and downright ridiculous to say “let the patient suffer, it’s the only way he’ll learn.” Especially if the symptoms themselves could be fatal. And especially when the people suffering aren’t the ones who actually “need to learn.” When millions of people are starving to death in third-world nations or drowning when their overloaded refugee ships are turned away from wealthy ports, will you look them in the eye and tell them it’s necessary because otherwise oil company executives might not be as motivated to reduce emissions?
Regulation.
The carbon tax, along or instead of cap-and-trade, was the conservative alternative to straight-up regulation. “We need a market based approach!” they said, “We need something that’s responsive!” they said, “We need something that’s cost-neutral!” they said. Regulation was too hard, too strict, too ornerous, too old-school for our modern, fast-moving, market-based world.
“Trust us!” the capitalists said.
And now it’s too hard because even a weaksauce carbon tax is too much for their precious profit margins. There’s money that someone else is making that is rightfully theirs! It was their idea and now they can’t even.
So you know what? You don’t like the carbon tax? The we go back to good old-fashioned, ball-busting regulation. Because it fucking works.
So, echoing my response to the other guy saying this, how well did that work for plastics? Everyone knows paper straws are worse and unnecessary, and it just makes them want to go back to the old way, microplastics be damned. It’s easy to say “regulate”, but when it’s as complex a problem as the energy source for our whole technological civilisation there’s not a clear way to actually write such a legislation.
The issue with the carbon tax isn’t that it doesn’t work, it’s that it’s unpopular.
Are plastics use really regulated? I don’t mean at mcd’s, I mean plastics industry wide.
So, like, except for the regulations? That seems like an unfair question.
There’s probably ones other than the straw and bag ones we’re all familiar with. I don’t know how many, or how many you would consider enough, though.
Yes, fine the shit out of them with penalties that will actually impact or potentially even destroy corporations who choose to continue destroying our planet instead of these tiny bullshit slap on the wrist fines that companies just laugh off
If a company exists at the expense of humanity’s survival then it does not deserve to exist.
The difficult part is it’s tough to actually measure pollution emitted by an entity accurately and fine accordingly.
You can guess how much CO2 output there is from a refinery, sure, and fine them for it, but they will just raise the prices of end products to compensate for it.
In the end gas goes up the same amount but the less affluent people dependant on it won’t get rebates. They’re money just goes to the corporations anyways in order to pay for the fines.
how much CO2 output there is from a refinery, sure, and fine them for it, but they will just raise the prices of end products to compensate for it.
If their polluting activities ultimately lead to fewer people buying their products because of that increased cost, maybe that’s the financial incentive they need to clean up their act?
Though I don’t hold my breath that big corporations are willing (or able) to think beyond next month’s profit and instead look a year or 5 into the future sustainability of their enterprise (let alone their negative impacts on the society that they exist in)
but they will just raise the prices of end products to compensate for it.
Not if you slap that bullshit down with regulations: Prevent them from pulling that kind of shit and when they find a way around it (because they will) you put a stop to that shit too.
Yeah I can see the argument that implementing the regulatory framework necessary to monitor emissions would be more in our long term interests (and possibly cheaper in the long run) and better than hoping a broad tax will cause bad actors to act better.
corporations who choose to continue destroying our planet
Which ones are the good oil companies? Or do you think we don’t need any oil companies?
It feels like this suggestion relies on there only being a few people that are contributing to the problem, when in reality it’s pretty structural.
That’s why we elected officials, to come up with ideas. Taxing food is not an idea, it’s a cheap shot at the working class. Tax from the top down, beginning with luxury goods, private planes, expensive non essentials. But for fucks sake stop taxing food!!
Don’t most Canadians receive a bigger rebate for the carbon tax than the tax ends up costing them?
Yes, but the government hasn’t made that clear in short enough words for the average Conservative voter to understand.
Yes. 8 out of 10, according to Trudeau. It might be more like 7.
The only mistake they made was not sending out the rebates on paper checks inside a pretty envelope covered in windmills. They would have called it “self-promotion” and “an unnecessary expense”, and they would have been right, but apparently we’re not good enough to be treated as intelligent adults who can see our own finances.
If you’re taxing my food supply at every step on its way to me, you were indeed taxing me
That’s why we elected officials[:] to come up with ideas.
Nope. We elect officials to manage our shared resources in the way we say. We could get them to consult experts and do what they say, but half the time it’s a climate-denying bunch of politicians masquerading under an affordability lie mask, and they don’t consult for advice they would ignore anyway.
When we did consult experts, the best idea from economists and climate types with a chance of success was … (drum roll) … Carbon Tax.
Taxing food is not an idea[:] it’s a cheap shot at the working class.
So that’s what the “tax nothing and provide nothing” party wants you to believe. Their rich friends get hit a lot with taxes and it’s getting hard to avoid them.
Remember that taxing the transport method doesn’t tax the cargo except indirectly. The goal is to provide massive opportunities for a better transport option to grow because conveyance isn’t firmly linked to cargo: there’s options. Evolution takes time, and we’re starting Very Late, but the proceeds from the tax is a fast-forward button.
If your politicians are demonizing the carbon tax, despite non-rich people getting far more back on average, find out why they’re doing that. There’s a rich guy behind it.
Tax from the top down, beginning with luxury goods, private planes, expensive non essentials.
Good ideas, all of them. Add in higher taxes for second homes, any rental income, or just make it any income above 300k/year or some number to firmly hit the rich bitches and not the 99.999% rest of us.
But for fucks sake stop taxing food!
Stop eating gasoline.
You sound like one of those people that believes in trickle down economics and thinks that taxing a company won’t cause them to pass the cost to consumers.
That’s not what they said at all. That’s not even an uncharitable read of it. Indignant, impotent anger does in no way change the fact that costs are a deterrant, even to those who can pass the costs along, and that making certain business choices more expensive than others disincentivises those choices.
The simple fact is, we pay for the sins of those who come before us. We pay for the sins of those who voted for lax governance of business, reduction of environmental protections, the breakdown of antitrust protections, and the weakening of labour laws.
We pay figuratively, and we pay literally.
You’re so close. So very close.
If company A uses gas, they have to pay a little more carbon tax, and that extra costs end up in the final product.
But lucky for you! Company B also exists, they crunched the numbers and found that over the life of their vehicle it is actually cheaper to use EVs, in their case their end product is a little cheaper than what Company A could provide.
Then you go to the store and you see option A and B, you see B is cheaper and you buy it.
The carbon pricing model has now worked exactly as economists have been saying for decades.
'We suggest: not paying"
