sorry but banning anonymous payments is pretty good for fighting corruption…
I order to participate in the fight again corruption, would you mind sharing with us the list of payement you made this week? Please use the following format :
[date], [time] - [nature of the payement] - [transaction amount] - [beneficiary]
One transaction per ligne, in a chronological order.
Corrupt politicians can simply ignore the law. If they didn’t ignore it, they wouldn’t be very corrupt.
This is not true in France. Politicians that have proven fraud are arrested and charged. In France we have Sarkozy, Cahuzac, Fillon that were all charged with crimes.
They were president, minister and presidential candidate respectively. I’d be surprised if it was different in the USA. I’m seeing that trump is also being charged, the system seems to be working.
After the Panama Papers and everything like it I’ve experienced in my life, I truly believe it doesn’t matter if very wealthy or powerful people are exposed on anything they do unless it involves what Epstein did. Financial crime is not generally of interest, regardless of how interesting it might be to you and me. Sure this can be used to fight corruption, but why is the system corrupt in the first place? Is this really going to be used against those corrupting influences or is it going to be used as another of the many tools in the drug war?
The solution isn’t to do nothing. This post reads like it’s not in good faith. Like it’s trying to promote giving up.
Of course. By suggesting that I don’t think this will do anything about corruption and will if anything be a tool used for corrupt purposes, I don’t mean to suggest that there is nothing to do about corruption. Even though I think the solutions to social and economic problems are rarely solved from the top down, I do think the issues can be addressed bottom up. The people have the power and it’s only by circumstance that some people appear to hold the power.
I am pretty sure the lesser part of corruption is cash. Probably more stuff like exchanging a lucrative contract for political support.
They are not stupid. Afterall cash needs to be explained, a good contract gives you cash and the explanation.
Cash is mostly traceable at point of contact unless you keep it in a money bin and don’t spend it, though…
Not necessarily, it’s only traceable if you generate receipts on both sides. I don’t know about EU law, but in the US, you only need to report cash deposits if they’re over $10k, and if your deposits are always over $10k (e.g. you’re a big retailer or something), another $10k here and there won’t raise any eyebrows.
Cash is still king when it comes to corruption since it’s easy to exchange it for favors w/o generating a receipt at all.
Can’t say in terms of proportion cash vs. non-cash but one might want to watch the Qatargate recent documentary on Arte which shows that somehow a 700k EUR luggage was found in the house of a MEP. Piles of cash sound outdated yet clearly still exist nowadays.
Consumers payments deserves their privacy, but business ones needs absolutely to be fully traceable.
Could it be possible to use two different yet identical interchangeable currencies, one traceable for making business only, and one untraceable for consumers retail transactions?
loosely i.e.
- wages are Business currency converted and paid in Consumer currency, accounted for the amount paid to the consumer in his name
- end-users/home/consumer purchases are made from consumers anonymously in Consumer currency, and this is converted converted into Business currency upon transaction, keeping only the consumer name anonymous but tracing everything else
- B2B transactions are made in Business currency, fully traceable
… I don’t know there is probably still a loophole
i mean does it really? russia is heavily sanctioned to the rest of the western world.
So, Europe limiting people’s freedom, even more. Why am I not surprised? Use Monero and build the circular economy. Give the middle finger to these clowns. People in the US need to do the same thing because we are headed down the same path. That’s why I always suggest if you have Monero not turning it back into Fiat ever.
Use Monero, burn the planet, don’t buy anything useful with it as it can be made illegal after one legislation and don’t forget to actively swap it between 10 other different cryptocurrencies. Also thanks to Microsoft for hosting Monero official source code repository.
burn the planet
How much energy does it take to run the banking sector?
don’t buy anything useful with it as it can be made illegal after one legislation
Yeah, good luck with that. It’s censorship resistant. So that legislation doesn’t fucking matter.
actively swap it between 10 other different cryptocurrencies
Funny as most stuff can be purchased in Monero without swapping.
Also thanks to Microsoft for hosting Monero official source code repository.
which could be easily changed at any time.
Please do remember that the banking industry provides banking for the entire world, instead of ~ten thousand people. It does cost a lot of energy, yes, but the energy per person is far less than with any cryptocurrency.
Monero is a terrible investment long term. Pricing is hard because the value is always changing
What do you mean? I’ve been using Monero for over a year and in that time one Monero has always equaled one Monero. /s
It’s only when you price it in fiat currency that the price changes.
You obviously didn’t read it. This is specifically targeting businesses, not individuals, so you’ll still be able to use Monero and whatnot to buy stuff from companies, they just need to have their crypto wallets at a custodian (presumably for tax transparency). Likewise with cash transactions, large transactions are rare and unnecessary between businesses.
If that is actually the case, the crypto portion is at least not that bad. The 10k limit on cash transactions is just not feasible in some industries though.
Yeach im most worried about used car market. Thats the only place that i know of where large amounts of cash is exchanged most often.
I’m all for privacy and I’d use Monero all the time, but this kind of regulations heavily damaged the mafia so tbh let’s go for it. I’m not gonna spend 3k per transaction regardless
If banks and shops don’t accept and give paper money to randoms, bad people have a more difficult life.
It is not only bombs and guns, it’s an intricated system of black market, black job that Redditors from other countries have no idea about 👍
Enjoy your distopia and thank you for enlightening me of how money laundering, black market and kyc works. Keep parroting “security” and “for the kids” though ;)
Clickbait headline. The underlying article lists much more reasonable restrictions:
- Anonymous cash payments over €3,000 will be banned in commercial transactions
- Cash payments over €10,000 will even be completely banned in business transactions
- Anonymous payments in cryptocurrencies to wallets operated by providers will be prohibited
So non-commercial transations are fine, as are crypto transactions to non-custodial wallets.
Unless you want to buy something with cash. Once they cross the line they won’t stop until cash and anonymity are gone
Commercial transactions -
Aaah, the kind of transaction that most transactions are?
Operated by providers
Aah, so any business which accept crypto must KYC every one of their customers. This makes accepting crypto especially burdensome, which is half the point of this legislation in the first place.
So non-commercial transations are fine, as are crypto transactions to non-custodial wallets.
Unless you’re using the wallet to buy or sell something. You know, the thing people use money for.
Why does the government need to have every transaction reported to them? Crime is bad because it causes harm. If harm is being caused, that means a person or entity is causing that harm. That means there is evidence. Follow that.
Police have more surveillance and crime-detecting tools than at any point in human history. Nearly every category of crime, particularly violent crime, is on a decades-long downtrend. We all travel with GPS monitors in our pockets. We all use credit cards instead of cash. We all are recorded by CCTV 90% of the places we go. We don’t need to give them more financial surveillance because ‘crime’.
I’m not saying these rules are perfect, but it doesn’t help if you argue against rules that don’t exist.
Commercial transactions are not “all” tx, and above 3000€ are obviously not the most common tx.
I do think the crypto restriction with no lower limit is too much, and I don’t get why they focus on custodial wallets, but it’s again not “all” tx.
Why does the government …
Money laundering, tax evasion and corruption are real crimes with real consequences, and knowing about the flow of money is pretty much required to be able to detect them. It’s a trade-off with privacy, so imo setting some limit for anonymous payments is the right thing to do. Idk if 3000€ is perfect, but it does seem reasonable.
Police have more surveillance and crime-detecting tools …
We need some amount of oversight and surveillance, so imo it’s not good enough to just exaggerate every proposal to the extreme and reject it on those grounds. These rules are not a total crackdown on anonymous payments, but they might still be too restrictive. But you kill every discussion about that if you just make up different rules entirely, instead of arguing about the rules that were actually adopted.
so any business which accept crypto must KYC every one of their customers
No, any business must use a KYC custodian for their wallets. I don’t think they’ll need to KYC their customers, they’ll just need to account for those transactions in their accounting.
So if the company accepts Monero, the Monero wallet would need to be with a custodian, but you’d be free to use Monero to buy stuff and remain anonymous. At least that’s my read.
This doesn’t seem that much worse than American rules that have already been in place for a long, long time.
As it is, large payments or withdrawals must be reported to federal agencies, anything over $10k. This applies to cash transactions as well and the forms the IRS requires you to fill in a $10k+ cash transaction can be found here.
The biggest difference would be the impact on cash transactions and crypto transactions in the EU.
I’m pro-privacy, but a lot more crypto facilitates crime than not, so I don’t really know why people would be shocked that governments would attack crypto specifically here (literally almost all ransomware uses crypto). Looks like way more of a crackdown on crypto than cash, but maybe that’s just me. (On top of the fact that a lot of crypto isn’t privacy-oriented. Looking at you, Bitcoin)
Related: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/venmo-paypal-zelle-must-report-600-transactions-irs-rcna11260
Two years ago USA put in rules for commercial digital transfers over $600 to be reported. Just pointing out that the EU’s rules don’t seem particularly draconian when weighed against already existing rules elsewhere.
Here in Germany Cash payments for houses are a great way of laundering money for the mafia. Similar roles have als been proposed a while ago
Still not a good enough reason to reduce the privacy and freedom of any citizen. I don’t care if the mob uses cash, let the police track the serial numbers of their cash if they catch them doing crimes or whatever. The mob isn’t my problem, but losing freedom is bad for every citizen.
Italian here. Our right wing government who blinks an eye to all small entrepreneur in Italy (there are A TON here) recently increased the max cash payment from 2k to 5k. This is definitely a way to say “please be free to recycle a bit more oney” and to gain votes in exchange.
It’s incredible how Germany, Austria, or Switzerland to name a few have this crazy high cash payment.
In fact our “ndrangheta” for example (Mafia from Calabria) expanded a lot in Germany due to this.
