If you’re position is excluding trans women from sport because of vibes you’re just a transphobe.
There is no rabid hoard of transwomen waiting to overrun sport and sweep the awards. Until recently this wasn’t even an issue, the Olympics has allowed trans women to compete from like 2000. Where are the medals?
We’re a tiny population who generally perform worse than natal women because our T is lower. Despite all the contrived “just asking questions” about skeleton size or whatever nonsense there is no clear picture of advantage. At any rate tall women aren’t banned from sport. Even women with PCOS aren’t banned from sport.
We don’t have seperate leagues for people raised in stable households on good diets and yet that’s got performance benefits that swamp anything from having a slightly higher forearm to middle finger ratio or whatever insane thing people bring up.
This whole thing is completely drummed up and is just an acceptable way for the general unease cis people feel about trans people to be voiced.
If this is all drummed up, then why do transgender athletes have such a problem with competing in the all-comers category instead of the women’s category, which is reserved for XX born females who have all of the disadvantages you describe above since birth?
The same fucking reason why people resented segregation you idiot.
You are not this stupid, this is entirely bad faith. Just say “I find trans women gross and I don’t give a shit about trans men” instead of pretending you have anything principled to say.
Except skin color does not affect athletic performance whereas sex does. There is a huge difference in segregation and this topic.
We don’t have seperate leagues for people raised in stable households on good diets and yet that’s got performance benefits that swamp anything from having a slightly higher forearm to middle finger ratio or whatever insane thing people bring up.
This is actually a really good point. There’s no much natural variation in body types and hormone levels.
It is interesting that you bring up the fact that not many transwomen are winning medals. Would it be a problem if they were? If so, what percent of women’s medals going to transwomen would make you decide that transwomen shouldn’t be allowed in women’s sports?
The point of all leagues/divisions/brackets is to foster community and competition. Consistent domination of any one group of people stifles that.
If people with green eyes started winning every single javelin competition it would be a reason to consider making a green eyed javelineer league assuming their was the numbers and interest to support it (otherwise you’re just banning green eye’d javelineers de facto).
Fascinating! This is a take I think I’ve never come across. Am I right in assuming that you think there should be light-skinned and dark-skinned events in the Olympics then? There are many events that almost always go to dark-skinned individuals. The same thing holds for many professional sports.
This is a really interesting idea. I doubt it will happen, but if it did, I wonder if we would see the same people claiming that female athletes dont get paid enough claiming the same for white male athletes.
I have to say, I am quite surprised by your response. I really appreciate that! Thank you very much!
I don’t disagree with you, necessarily. It’s an incredibly grey issue and one of the few issues that the left shouldn’t be as absolutist about and have a conversation. And beyond that, it’s so low on the list of priorities. Even for trans people themselves I can’t imagine this is high on the list.
But your Protip makes you look like a tool. Why preemptively try to act like you’re some kind of martyr?
“Sort by controversial” is just complaining about being hidden due to downvotes. It also doesn’t make sense for multiple reasons. They’ve already seen your comment, you’re upvoted, you’re not necessarily going to get downvotes due to a nuanced conversation, Lemmy isn’t usually busy enough to be buried in comments, etc.
You can say it’s a controversial subject without victimizing yourself.
In general, and I’m sure some people here will be incensed at the suggestion, people do not give a shit about women’s sports and the only time many of them do is when they find out a “man” is competing in them.
Most of the women in women’s sports who are asked support trans inclusion (somewhat sport dependent, some sports are historically more queer friendly than others) and find equal pay to be a much bigger issue for women’s sports. For some reason nobody who is “concerned” about women’s sports wants to hear that, though. 🤷♂️
Wow, I honestly thought Lemmy would be less transphobic. This totally rational comment downvoted for no reason. If most women in sports aren’t concerned about trans women being there, why are all these assholes concerned about it.
The reason for women getting paid less in sports is due to advertisement revenue. Not as many people watch women’s sports, so advertisers pay less. This results in female athletes getting paid less. I know that economics is not everyone’s strong point, but you really don’t have to get very deep into it to understand this concept, all it takes is an open mind and the willingness to learn something new.
Yeah it’s a fairly standard grift now, they point at again random trans women winning (or make them up) and say it’s not fair because obviously trans women are just dudes in wigs, and because that’s what a lot of cis people think (or at most - they know that breast implants are a thing despite the fact trans women avoid them like the plague) and they screech about muh biomechanical males and females and whatnot.
You can explain and show a million times how most trans women have lower Testosterone levels than cis women do (weak biological loose regulation vs the cold perfection of medicine) and it will do fuck all because it’s all pretense, if trans women were wizards who changed completely including genetically they’d still just wanna brand us for it.
So tiring and exhausting. All just screaming into the void. So much bloodlust. Can’t wait for the civil war at this point.
EDIT: ah the bloodthirsty have come here
EDIT2: for all the people below saying I’m being too extreme just a reminder that I did not even say anything mean in this comment. Still downvoted to oblivion and disagreed with like some extreme take. You take from that what you will.
Trans women are biologically female btw in all ways that aren’t literally just the presence of the Y chromosome, from gonads, to their blood, to gene expression :3
Sports are inherently unfair, and trans women’s strength advantage is lost with transition.
Puberty blockers for minors are the compromise. (this would also eliminate the stupid sport shit hence why they wanna ban it)
I was with you until that last part lol. I’m not ready for a war.
But yeah, no evidence will persuade people. They have super intense beliefs about trans people because they saw something on Fox News or their social media feed. Confirmation bias and whatnot
It’s not hard to find evidence to support the skepticism about trans women in sports:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648944/
I’m curious what evidence you’re talking about?
Yeah. I went from being a fairly progressive trans liberationist to a bit more conservative transmedicalist arguing that sports and healthcare are issues best settled by science and attempt to focus on dysphoria and the physical literal aspects of everything but even that does not work.
No matter how much evidence cis people simply do not believe you, no matter what you say: trans women = bio men or maybe have even more testosterone and thus muscle mass, no matter what they think everyone transitioned because trauma or some psychological social bullshit they made up in their stupid fucking battle of the sexes.
They mostly are either too evil, or too stupid to understand us and I don’t really give a shit which is which anymore. It’s not always true, but it’s a safe assumption.
And yeah I don’t want a war either ofc, but I see no other end to society in general as it is now.
We need a fucking trans-ethnostate.
They mostly are either too evil, or too stupid to understand us and I don’t really give a shit which is which anymore. It’s not always true, but it’s a safe assumption.
You have become what you hate, congrats on your bigotry.
It won’t help. Bigotry doesn’t get better for separation, it gets worse. People need exposure to the other, to see that trans people aren’t some kind of media trope monster, just people. Being an out trans person is one of the best things that people who have passing privilege can do, to reduce the stigma of being trans in society and remove trans people from the scary caricature the media loves to sell.
EDIT: Now who would downvote a patient and thorough explanation evidenced with scientific data that just slightly does not align with how a cisoid imagines things work?
Most of those articles are either disingenuous, if not outright false. How? Glad you asked.
The whole issue is disingenuous to begin with. Sports is a competition of genetic freaks and is fundamentally unfair.
The reason you see black women win at athletics is also because they have more T on average lmfao.
In fact, restrictions on trans women’s T levels often end up banning black women. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/07/two-cis-black-women-banned-olympics-natural-testosterone-levels/
https://www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/the-international-olympic-committee-is-failing-black-women
I have lower T than them btw so as a trans woman I’d actually be fine, and probably at a disadvantage to them
These are the latest rules if I’m not wrong:
https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/eligibility-regulations-for-female-classifica
The limit is reducing to 5 nmol/L to enter.
I have 0.5 nmol/L as a trans woman and have had this level for 10 years since my teens, because I’m trans and suppressing T and raising E is literally what medical transition is.
I’d likely have lower strength as a result and would not be able to win, no matter how much I trained.
https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/Supplement_1/A792/6241278
The reason Usain Bolt wins the run is because he’s got long legs, someone else could train all their life - and they will never win if they don’t have a bigger advantage.
I want to make this bit crystal clear:
I don’t really give a shit about sports.
If you’d like to just ban all trans people completely and fully then please do so.
But the right-wing think-tanks behind it won’t do any such thing, because then their golden goose - the wedge issue that awakens the bloodlust in the average cis person - kicking a thing in a thing - is what they’re using as a stick to beat trans people with and take our rights to healthcare (this includes minors btw) etc.
I think the truth of the matter is that trans women are seen as just blokes in wigs by the vast majority of cis people and because of weird societal shit that makes it bad, and the reality that human bodies are fairly malleable and vague is hard or undesirable to accept, therefore the easiest solution is to hate trannies, if possible while maintaining the pretense of a moral high ground ala “fairness in sports” despite the fact it’s almost a comtradiction in terms.
Can’t wait for the civil war at this point.
EDIT: ah the bloodthirsty have come here
I guess the hypocrisy is lost on you. Frankly I’m inclined to believe you’re a right wing troll trying to make trans people look bad at this point.
Odd that you would focus on testosterone levels instead of muscle mass. It’s certainly true that trans women have testosterone levels comparable with cis women, and also true that they would lose some amount of muscle mass due to that. However, they still retain more muscle than a cis woman would have, in general.
I think it’s legitimate to ask if that’s fair.
I really don’t know enough about who has when an advantage, but when that whole drama broke out about that swimmer who won by a landslide that used to be a man, i was browsing some trans/lgbtq boards. Most of them said that it’s more than fair, because men have denser bones and a lot of convincing arguments for her. But then it had me thinking, why are men so dominant in swinning then? (I assume they are, i think professional sports are pretty pointless and shit)
With all that being said, i feel like if you go through a sex change, which should he the most important and dearest thing one could ever do, maybe it’s time to just drop a silly sport for it. Because one of these things is surely more important than the other.
When you transition, you often lose everything. Family, friends, work, support networks. You name it, every single one of them is impacted, even if they’re not lost completely.
It’s not a “silly sport” it’s community, which can be life saving if you’ve lost most of the rest of it…
Before HRT, she was a top ranked men’s swimmer. After hrt, on the men’s, she dropped into the 400s. When she had been on HRT long enough to compete as a woman, she was a top ranked women’s swimmer, but was still beaten by several cis women. What’s the issue, exactly?
Ah, because testosterone levels hugely influence muscle mass and resultant strength and performance. The longest study on the matter actually ended up with trans women having on average LESS muscle strength than cis women.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8090355/
I don’t actually give a single shit about sports btw.
But this is a good example, this issue brings out the inherent bloodthirst many cis have towards trans people.
…bloodthirst?? Because somebody disagreed with you? How about you calm down instead of being such an extremist. And no, your single study with like 8 people in each group is not more convincing than all of the other studies that you’re deliberately choosing to ignore.
I suspect that this study should be repeated on the athlete subpopulations, because I imagine many trans women are actively trying to not be muscular in order to aid transitioning, which is a different goal from those participating in athletics.
Believe me when I say that I support my LGBTQ+ peeps.
And I concede that I don’t know much about the subject of trans people in sports and physical capabilities.
But in my view, trans women have higher probability to be stronger than most cis female athletes. I’m not saying it happens all the time. But it happens. There is a reason there are competition categories. Even in the same gender, for example, in boxing, there are weight divisions.
So, I don’t know what the solution is. Measure the amount of strength and categorize accordingly? Having an extra “transgender” category? I tell you - I would watch this! Not in a morbid way, but a genuine one, no different from watching women’s soccer or men’s tennis, for example.
Believe me when I say that I support my LGBTQ+ peeps.
No, I don’t believe you.
Because you literally admitted that you don’t know much about this topic, but still came out to argue for the exclusion of one of the most marginalised parts of the LGBTQ community.
Your understanding is one that comes from the talking points of people trying to use sports as a wedge tactic to further ostracise trans folk, and you completely disregard or simply fail to look for the experiences of trans people and the impact these exclusions have on them.
So if you genuinely do support LGBTQ folk, and that sentence wasn’t just a salve for your own conscience, it might be time to stop stepping on the people you claim to support. If you don’t know enough to form a supportive opinion, that’s fine, but stop adding to the voices trying to pull us down…
Friend, I understand your struggle. I’m also part of a marginalized group. I’ll stand schooled and say that I must inform myself more, sure. But don’t characterize me as someone who is trying to put you down.
You’re speaking in absolutes, though. To “completely disregard or fail to look for the experiences of trans people” would mean to say bullshit like “I fail to see how they’re suffering for not being women because trans women are NOT women” - that is to completely disregard it, like you put it. And friend, you don’t know how many heated discussions I’ve had with people, even childhood friends, to defend trans rights, simply because it’s the natural and right thing to do.
So, I’m here to discuss, to be taught, to learn, to gather tools and help to continue defending everyone’s rights, yours and mine.
I’m not talking about excluding anyone. I’m discussing different options that allow inclusion. Are they right or wrong? I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking! But again, don’t accuse me of doing something I’m not doing.
Can you share your knowledge now?
But in my view, trans women have higher probability to be stronger than most cis female athletes. I
Given this belief, is there a reason trans women have never taken Olympic medals despite having nearly 20 years to do so? That would seem to be evidence against that perspective. If any trans women are more capable at sport than cis women shouldn’t at least one have been world class?
Theres a trans female weightlifter Laurel Hubbard who made it to the Olympics in 2020. Passed every Olympic requirement for trans women to compete. Big hubbub about biological advantage and all that from the critics. She was in the competition one would most expect dominance from someone assigned male at birth. She had three lifts. She failed three lifts. Placed last in her group. So much for that.
How many trans women compete in olympic sports in women’s categories? Genuine question.
Anything you say followed by “but” is completely meaningless, know that all the “LGBTQ+ peeps” here you claim to support now know to avoid you like the plague
Anything you say followed by “but”
Jesus. What a weak, generalizing argument.
You’re going to make me go full godwin. Imagine saying “I support my Jewish friends and what happened to them at the Holocaust was heinous. But what Israel is doing to Gazans is inexcusable” then someone telling you “anything after the ‘but’ is meaningless, and all the Jewish community here will avoid you like the plague.”
I just hope you’re a troll.
But in my view, trans women have higher probability to be stronger than most cis female athletes. I’m not saying it happens all the time.
If they are on hormone blockers and HRT, they honestly do not have a higher probability. That said, it would be pretty fucking invasive to make sure they are taking those consistently.
But then, what’s the solution? If an athlete says “hm, I’ll stop taking this hormone to have a competitive advantage over everyone else,” how’s that different from doing the opposite? (e.g. taking hormones.)
I really don’t have answers to these questions. It’s an important topic, though.
Sport is such an unfair world, trying to find equality and justice in it is futile. We don’t want kids taking growth hormones to boost their chances of making it into the NBA. But that also means we crush the dream of plenty of people. Athletes with asthma can’t use their inhaler under certain circumstances. A few years ago an UFC fighter with Asthma got his win overturned because he used an inhaler inbetween rounds.
There was a huge discussion about allowing prosthetics in “regular” competition. Turned out at the time that proshetics weren’t advanced enough to give an advantage. But I think we all know that this is only a matter of time. And eventually a hard ruling needs to be made that dictates in which direction sport goes.
Banning athletes who take as many hormones, hormone blockers, and other mediaction as transwomen usually take is 100% something that needs to happen. Especially considering that in certain leagues the usage of these substances is the only reason that transwomen are allowed to compete. That feels against the spirit of sport and TUEs. But untill more data exist, I doubt a useful ruling can be made.
What I don’t like about the whole discussion is going for the “They aren’t real women” argument. That feels degrading and hurtful for everyone involved. I don’t want cis or transwomen to have to undergo inspections to determine their gender.
But the “hormones” you generically refer to, aka fucking estrogen lol, and hormone blockers Trans women take aren’t an advantage. Ask any trans women, they make you weaker…
Like why point out trans women when trans MEN are taking a hormone that actually promotes strength and athleticism? TERF vibes
They make you weaker, perhaps, but are you at the same level as a cis woman who was never exposed to that level of testosterone?
And trans men are just competing against men that naturally produce those same hormones.
It is simply a complex issue that defies a simple answer.
There are plenty of cis women that have higher natural t levels than men, that’s why many sports already required people stay under certain t levels before trans sporting rights were even in the question.
Every woman has variations in their hormone makeups and history. Besides, the pool of trans women athletes is just so small, and the amount of vitriol is so disproportionate and obviously rooted in transphobia.
With your passion and drive, you would absolutely be a force to be reckoned with and a wonderful asset. It is such a shame that you are struggling so much with petty name calling and insults because instead of helping the trans cause, the actual effect you have is absolutely the opposite. You hurt it tremendously. You 100% come across as someone who is uneducated, childish, and mindlessly mean. You lack the ability to respond to anyone in a way that encourages them to see things from your point of view.
I’m sure that deep down you have some good points, you are just currently utterly unable to convey them. This is not a reason to give up though, just a reason to spend some time self reflecting. You can be so much better and more useful than you currently are. Not only will that help your community, but it will also help you enjoy your life more on a personal level.
The trans community is full of so many unspeakable incredibly amazing individuals. I’m sure you can find some to look up to and learn from. Good luck. I know you’ve got it in you!
lmao I’m not here to convince transphobic people of anything. take your smug tone-policing and shove it up your damn ass
boohoo waaaaa I said someone has terf vibes 😭😭😭😭
Banning athletes who take as many hormones, hormone blockers, and other mediaction as transwomen usually take is 100% something that needs to happen.
Those hormone blockers block testosterone and the hormones they take are estrogen. Those are not exactly performance enhancing actions. In fact, they do the opposite. If anything, we should be making sure that trans women competing in sports should be taking hormone blockers and estrogen.
You need to re-examine your take because it is truly baffling.
Why do transgender athletes have such a problem with competing in the all-comers category instead of the women’s category, which is reserved for XX born females who have been producing all of the hormones you describe above since birth?
You just made up those requirements. Are XXX and XXY women not allowed to compete in your sport that you made up the requirements for? What about women with Swyer syndrome?
As for why women would prefer competing in a women’s competition, that question kind of answers itself.
