lol. No they aren’t.
Seriously, windows is about to release forced advertisements in the Start Menu. Windows 12 is going to be a shit show. People aren’t going to flock to Linux, they’re going to Apple. Think they have a lot of money now? Wait until they get more desktop market. They can afford to build another garden.
Say what you want about Apple, it’s probably true. But don’t pretend they don’t have gardens inside gardens.
The only way Apple will fall is if there is actual competition, and nothing is on the horizon.
The number of people who will leave windows over this stuff is trivial.
Apple has practically zero presence in enterprise (where one company can have 60,000 computers), and also practically zero in SMB.
Business software is written for windows. Even trying to use a Mac with the most basic office software is challenging - even if the exact same product exists in both.
People aren’t flocking anywhere when their work machines are windows. Damn few people can be bothered with learning 2 ways to do things, especially when they’re not interested in computing. I’ve been at this since before Mac existed, and while I can use OSX or iOS, I’m not wasting my limited learning time on something I rarely use, and can’t really integrate with much of the rest I use.
Now let’s look at some other arenas:
Legal - they all use a small set of document apps (which until recently was wordperfect), and some legal database apps. None of the database apps run on Mac as far as I’ve seen.
Engineering - there are practically no CAD apps for Mac. Some do exist, but again, even the ones that are on both Windows and Mac are problematic at best on Mac, typically unable to integrate with the back end.
Most people don’t have the bandwidth to learn a new system just to avoid the shitty part of Windows (which only affects home users anyway). It takes less effort/time to figure out how to mitigate the Windows issues than to deal with a completely new system, that will also have issues integrating with other stuff they already have.
Apple has practically zero presence in enterprise
And they’re not even trying as far as I’m concerned. Windows is dead easy to integrate something like device management software into or tie into central authentication or all sorts of enterprise goodies.
Apples enterprise software and integration is complete and utter trash. The it just works “magic” only applies to consumer things, the magic is gone the second you even think about doing anything remotely enterprise.
Got an Active Directory you want to integrate macOS with? Good luck. Want to use an apple alternative instead because you think it’ll be better? Better get a time machine. Device management? Better get ready to jump through hoop after hoop for a maybe half working solution.
I always say, Windows is an enterprise OS with consumer features and MacOS is a consumer OS with (half assed) enterprise “features”.
Yea, Apple very briefly started making effort to support enterprise in the 90’s, but quickly gave up the effort. I don’t remember it well, it may have been related to the PowerPC stuff they were doing with IBM (IBM dropped their support of the PowerPC project, unfortunately).
Windows is an enterprise OS with consumer features and MacOS is a consumer OS with (half assed) enterprise “features”.
Wow, I’ve been in IT for a long time, and this is the best way I’ve ever seen to describe the difference.
Eh, it kind of depends imo. Apple’s MDM is pretty great, they just don’t offer any real alternatives to AD, Exchange, etc. and integrating Macs into a Windows environment definitely does make some of the “it just works” magic evaporate quickly.
For a small business willing to go all in and do everything the Apple way I can see it being quite attractive though. Managed Apple IDs through Apple Business Manager for use with iCloud, Automated Device Enrolment with zero-touch provisioning straight out of the box and a robust MDM solution like Jamf make for a pretty neat package. It’s just not one that will appeal to every business, especially large ones or ones with a desire or requirement to keep things on-prem and in-house.
Apple definitely has a very long way to go to become any kind of real competition to Microsoft in the enterprise market, but with MS pushing more and more cloud stuff themselves (O365, Azure) I reckon it’s only a matter of time before they start neglecting things like AD and Exchange. And more people using Apple at home means employees and decision makers will start wanting to use that stuff at work too, for better or worse.
I’m not saying Apple will dethrone MS or anything, in fact I don’t think a future with Apple being a significant player in the enterprise market is particularly likely. But I think if MS screws up enough and Apple play their cards right, it’s not impossible.
The issue in that whole proposition lies within this one single sentence
Business software is written for windows
Nowadays, practically all companies are moving towards either SaaS, or in house web services. The pandemic has killed native enterprise apps, for better or for worse.
Windows only has decent presence because it’s reasonably easy to integrated Windows machines into corporate structures. The moment Apple taps into that market, it’s all over. We’ve seen that with Google basically ruining the school market for Microsoft by doing that, and it will happen again.
Counter point: I just got a new MacBook at work. It’s an all windows enterprise. There are like 10 of us that got macs. The setup for them is kludgy because all of the tooling is for windows.
That said, Microsoft office and one drive is so much better to use because the “integration” isn’t there…and it works like I want it to work.
It’s hilarious to me that they’ve made their offering worse with all of their efforts to integrate 365 and onedrive into everything.
I think if apple just did a little towards the enterprise they’d take chunks of market share. Like having a macpro with a pic/cac card reader would be a good start.
Engineering
Add to this lack of CUDA support, which is what pretty much all CAD runs on. Apple’s Metal may be interesting, but that doesn’t matter if the apps don’t port to it.
It’ll be especially interesting to see how AI plays out. If NVIDIA ends up winning (they’re currently way ahead), it’ll be the same issue as with engineering, but in more disciplines.
Oh, yea!
The other area I meant to mention related to engineering is external device control.
Things like specialized controllers for things like CNC, many of which won’t even run on NT-based systems, and still have to run Windows 9x to have the DOS-level hardware control.
Apple has practically zero presence in enterprise (where one company can have 60,000 computers), and also practically zero in SMB.
Right, that’s because since, well, NeXT acquisition they very openly abandoned that whole area and turned to marketing their stuff as home stuff and fashionable toys. That may change in future, like everything else.
Business software is written for windows. Even trying to use a Mac with the most basic office software is challenging - even if the exact same product exists in both.
The funny part is - Apple doesn’t need a full transition to be an option. They just need to make their system more and more usable (cutting cost and cutting their usual bullshit too, so maybe not too soon) for similar things over time. Then some small businesses may start using it, then bigger ones, maybe also in niche roles (like it is even now with audio production and publishing, I think? not sure, I’m not an Apple user).
Legal - they all use a small set of document apps (which until recently was wordperfect), and some legal database apps. None of the database apps run on Mac as far as I’ve seen.
Apple may participate significantly in the Wine project to change this. They are a big company with resources.
Engineering - there are practically no CAD apps for Mac. Some do exist, but again, even the ones that are on both Windows and Mac are problematic at best on Mac, typically unable to integrate with the back end.
Apple also does have the weight to persuade the developers of mainstream CAD apps port them to MacOS. I don’t think technical difficulties are the most important ones there. It’s just that there were no reason to do it. Like no agreement, no common strategy, no deals. Apple wasn’t interested in it because it’s not their intended market, developers weren’t interested in it because it’s a small market.
Most people don’t have the bandwidth to learn a new system just to avoid the shitty part of Windows (which only affects home users anyway). It takes less effort/time to figure out how to mitigate the Windows issues than to deal with a completely new system, that will also have issues integrating with other stuff they already have.
There were differences in UX between any pair of a thing which lost popularity and a thing to which the former lost it. I’m not sure this is a good argument.
Also they can try playing the long game and expect more users in 5-10 years, not right now.
A good portion of windows users are corporate/business users. They’re not going anywhere.
As someone in German Government who has written a thesis on OSS in government:
Happens regularly, on a small scale, but almost always eventually leads to a rollback to Windows. People are discontent with the solutions on Linux since they have to get used to something else, and the aging governmental workers and exactly very keen on things changing.
The City of Munich had a similar program of switching to Linux before, only took Microsoft to open an office in the city to revert on those plans.
The federal government recently finished rolling out a centralised, unified client around all of their ministries and other institutions. Which OS? Guessed it, Windows 10.
Dont get me wrong, having something like the French Police would be amazing, but the highly federal nature and old workforce of government make it super unlikely for Linux to have a proper chance. Taking into consideration the lack of suitable employees to drive forward such a change, the lack of money at local government levels and the fact that most of the specific software required doesn’t have a version for Linux doesn’t fill me with hope.
I want more entities to switch to Linux like that, but that’s unlikely in the near future. Most offices have Windows professional or enterprise (LTSC) which don’t have most of the bullshit regular Windows has.
Hmm interesting thought. But how many people are going to actually buy new computers when they don’t get updates? And of course how many will keep trucking with out of date windows? So for the one that buy a new computers, how many will just buy windows again? How many will have a tech savvy relative that can install Linux for them (because they can’t afford a new computer)? How many will go to Chromebook because it’s cheaper? Personally I never understood luxury brands, which I consider Apple to be.
Chromebooks aren’t really a threat. People who can use chromebooks as a daily driver probably already are. Also, most of the hardware is absolute garbage.
Apple isn’t all luxury. The Mac mini as fast af and starts at $599.
Apple just doesn’t have a “shit” category, like many other manufacturers.
Sure, a lot of people will choose Linux, but that won’t be a majority.
As much as I don’t want to give LTT credit, I think Linus has a point with Chromebooks. Google is playing the long game with them. Students almost exclusively use them these days, and anecdotally, most of them are getting chromebooks and the like for college now that they’re getting to that age. That’s at least been the case for almost every family member I’ve had that’s started college in the last 5 years.
It’s only going to continue as the average Chromebook legitimately is becoming more powerful, and Steam compatibility is improving. You’re going to see a whole lot of people who see no need for a PC/mac.
Apple definitely has a shit category, it’s the entry level with 8GBs of RAM. Completely unusable unless you’re only running a single app at a time.
I’m not so sure about Chromebooks not being a threat, at least for people who just want to browse the web. A crappy laptop that Windows 11 will bring to its knees will run ChromeOS well. If people compare the performance of both OS’s on an equivalently priced laptop, they’ll notice ChromeOS is way faster and buy it. To get the equivalent OS performance of a $300 Chromebook, you need a $1000 Windows laptop.
I think Apple’s main selling point is essentially luxury and status. The “look at me, I have an Apple like you, can I be part of the cool club now”. It’s not about functionality, which you can get the same for much cheaper. Also Apple’s shiny-ness, which it kinda does have. But that’s what the author is (poorly) getting at, people are now saying “eh, it’s a phone”.
I agree with the “shit” category. There are too many shit products being put out for laptops and phones, so it’s easy to think to get away from that (and into the cool club) you need apple.
My neighbour randomly asked me a few months ago if I was familiar with Linux and if I could could get him some boot USB or something. I got him one with several options. He didn’t have any Linux experience before, and isn’t exactly a nerd.
It’s much easier nowadays for someone to get familiar and use Linux than it was before, and it’s much cheaper than reworking your whole tech ecosystem to accomodate Apple’s monopoly.
My elderly neighbor needed a computer to do accounting, I set her up with Mint on a T430 w/ LibreOffice and told her I’d giver her free support till the laptop died.
5 years on and the only time I’ve had to fulfill my side of the bargain was when her printer was out of paper and she couldn’t find her eye glasses to read the error message.
her printer was out of paper and she couldn’t find her eye glasses to read the error message.
Hahahah, omg that’s awesome.
To me this user exemplifies where Linux shines: in limited-use-case scenarios (not to say it’s inflexible, just that support increases quickly with increased use-case complexity).
The more general-use needed, the more technical skill is required.
This user has a small set of specific requirements, so it’s pretty trivial to get them running on a Linux distro, and it’s a great application of what Linux brings to the table. System management will be minimal.
In addition to the other great points in this thread, Apple has a cost barrier that other operating systems don’t.
In an economic climate where everything is getting more expensive, a consumer isn’t going to fork out $800+ on a MacBook or an iPhone without first actively wanting to be part of the ecosystem, especially if the hardware they have gets the job done.
The reason Apple isn’t growing as fast as it’s competitors right now is exactly that. Apple is expensive to get into. No amount of enshitification on other OS’s is going to change that.
They had cheaper periods and series in the past. eMac and such.
Being more expensive is their competitive advantage. For people who consider this a sign of social status.
But they are a company with the goal of making money, so if changing that part of their image seems more profitable, they’ll do it.
For people who consider this a sign of social status
Ok well,
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Anyone who considers apple products a status symbol already has bought in and won’t be swayed one way or the other by windows becoming worse.
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Anyone who actually understands technology knows that regardless of how many different apps or environments apple OS’s provide, you are always operating in a closed system with the tools they allow. Whereas an operating system like android, or Linux, or (at least for now) windows, your options for the capability of a tool are limited only by what exists or what you have the capability to write.
In short, apple isn’t an OS that technologically literate people flock to as an exclusive option.
$599 is the entry point and the OS upgrade is free. Every app you might need is free. Like Pages, Numbers, Keynote. Etc.
So, it’s a pretty good package. You can also run all the apps Linux would have.
And while you might say they aren’t as popular, they sure have the money to ensure their products are up to date and secure.
Also, my 2013 MacBook Air (i7, 16gb, 512gb)—Running Neon now—is still very usable. Find me a PC laptop that holds up like that for less money.
my god what is wrong with Americans that you’re such a bunch of fucking fanboys. If it’s not apple, it’s religion, or your political party… psychotic obsession after psychotic obsession, total disconnect from reality…
Get fucking help
I didn’t read this as fanboy-ism. It’s simply the state of things. If another company wants to step up and produce a series of tech that’s as unfragmented as Apple, one that provides rudimentary protection and privacy, one that shuns ads and doesn’t depend on tracking for its revenue, I’m ready for it.
The “walled garden” is both what the average Apple customer wants, and what technophiles despise. Most iPhone users want the full assurance that they can download any app without performing research, knowing it won’t crash their indispensable device or track their every move. Say what you want about the limits of customization, it’s probably true, but Apple’s tight leash on software is precisely why iPhone is so reliable and private.
Yes. Apple has the best privacy policy in the industry.
Yeah, they won’t let anyone else profit off of their user’s information. They’ll do it, but nobody else can.
What industry? Does this industry you mentioned happens only contains data hungry ad oligopolies like google, facebook and bytedance; but happens to exclude all the reasonable alternatives like Mozilla, duckduckgo, grapheneos, calyxos, desktop linux, mastodon, and lemmy?
It’s interesting, because for my iPhone that is true. I was a bit concerned with the walled garden, but made the switch from Android because of privacy (not that Apple is perfect, just much better than Google). I can’t recall a single time when i wanted or needed more than what the iPhone offered.
But with my iPad there are multiple times when i wished i could run a local web dev environment, or run MacOS apps (it is using the save M1 as my computer after all)
What about discovering and installing private app that don’t use proprietary big tech service, including sending push notifications?
On android this is very easy, you can just search and install apps from fdroid, where all apps has been manually audited to make sure there is no telemetry and proprietary dependencies, including network service dependency.
Fdroid also build all the apps in their app store to prevent developers from secretly inject backdoors (think xz backdoor, and xcode ghost).
I don’t believe the fdroid model works in Apple’s walled garden.
i used fdroid when i used Android, but now i feel like it is a false sense of security. like, yeah, the apps themselves might not have telemetry, but the whole OS itself is a giant spyware made by the largest ad company in the world, so unless you are using a rooted, custom rom that has taken all the google apis out of the way, i still feel that my data is safer in ios than android with fdroid. the only real way to have data fully safe is too minimize the use of apps completely thou
i would use apps from an ios version of fdriod, if i had the chance, thou, so i think your point is valid
If you throw a linux OS to an average user, they would want to download app from the web instead of installing from app store. Average user don’t “want” to download app from the app store, they do that because they are “told” to do so.
I don’t believe most average user “love” anything, they only want their device to “work”, no matter what the privacy, security, and environmental concerns are. Plus apple’s repeated propaganda, which makes many people believe that Apple is reasonably private and eco-conscious.
I think one of the best decision apple has ever made is to start shitty and thus never enshittify. After a while, people accepted the shittiness of apple; yet Windows continuing to enshittify by putting ads everywhere, thus people feel like their old and good experiences have been taken away from them.
I an obviously not saying Windows is better than macOS, they are both shitty in different ways. But I feel like Window’s recent enshittification in some way contributed to the recent decline of Windows and rise of macOS.
Apple’s history of being walled garden is interesting.
So in the 80s and 90s, Apple tried the wall garden approach. And it absolutely failed. The IBM clones won out, with software and all that that worked across vendors and platforms. The hardware and software could be separated, so Apple’s approach of both and closed didn’t work.
Then Apple languished for decades.
Then with smartphones you had this product where the hardware and software needed to be tightly integrated. And tight integration was necessary to give a high functioning, small, compact device, where you needed the software to be highly optimized for the specific hardware.
I find it fascinating that Apple has stuck with the same formula for decades of wall garden and control of both hardware and software. That business model failed spectacularly, then treaded water, and then succeeded spectacularly. I think none of which was from an insightful or brilliant business analysis, it was just how the stubbornness played out.
So as for where it will go from here, I think who knows. Phone hardware is now powerful enough that you don’t need the same hardware and software vendor where it needs to be so tightly controlled. But Apple has built itself a nice market which is kind of self sustaining. Will people care about prices again?
So in the 80s and 90s, Apple tried the wall garden approach.
Wat. In the 90s Apple literally had officially sanctioned “clones”. https://everymac.com/systems/mac-clones/index-mac-clones.html
From 1995-1998, Apple authorized other
So after they lost and were scrambling. I expect at steep control, licensing fees, and hardship coming from Apple. A measly 3 years, I can’t see how they committed to the concept - I expect most people made the same judgment call (and were right). (Different read was Jobs was fired from Apple from 1985-1997, so maybe he killed it after returning). I also never heard of it (not that I’m an expert) so I expect it was a very big ‘too little, too late’ situation.
Or everyone is starting to figure out that the garden looks just as good outside the fence as it does inside the fence. Technology has been converging for many years now to the point where most devices especially smart phones have reached a bottleneck and no one can make things go any faster and there is really no big need for even more massive storage space for the average person. So phones have hit a ceiling and the place that Apple once had where they were one of the few manufacturers that made good phones is now overshadowed by lots of other companies that are comparable or near comparable. Does the average person really care if they have a high definition 20MP camera or a 22 MP camera. All they care about is being able to scroll through Tik Tok, FB or Instagram and no one really seems to care what device they use to do that any more.
Apple still has a pretty solid ecosystem that makes it hard to break out of. For example:
- airdrop and sharing in general - experience sucks pretty much anywhere else
- watch, phone, and laptop all working together - iMessage, notifications, etc
- iCloud - the experience is essentially seamless if you use all Apple products
I don’t think people will be leaving Apple anytime soon, and those who don’t use it probably don’t know what they’re missing.
I’m personally on Linux and it works well for me, but I recognize that people tend to stay where they’re at, and I think Apple is probably more attractive to people who decide to leave Windows than Linux is (unless they need games, and Linux still seems to have better compatibility).
From a technical point of view I agree … I have a few friends who work in music and visual arts and they swear by Apple products and software
But to average users and people who just want to go online with social media, snap a picture, share it, forget it and do it over and over and over again … they really don’t care if it’s an apple product or not. The family and friends I know that are not technically minded only understand one key technological specification when it comes to devices … PRICE and COST.
If they can’t afford a $1,000 apple phone … they’ll buy a $500 android phone … or just stick to their five year apple phone and won’t upgrade until they can buy a used $500 apple phone.
That’s not what I see. In my area, people buy Apple because it’s trendy. If they can’t afford the $1000 Apple phone, they’ll lease it and make payments. If they’re too young, they’ll convince their parents that they need it.
The ones with Android phones generally have a reason for it beyond cost. Once that reason is gone (e.g. Apple supports whatever the use case is), they may be swayed to get an iPhone. But once someone has an Apple device, they generally stick to it.
The Apple experience isn’t necessarily better, but it is sticky.
Next tech is probably going to be dedicated GPUs or similar to run personalized AI
It’s already here. I run AI models via my GPU with training data from various sources for both searching/GPT-like chat and images. You can basically point-and-click and do this with GPT4All which integrates a chat client and let’s you just select some popular AI models without knowing how to really do anything or use the CLI. It basically gives you a ChatGPT experience offline using your GPU if it has enough VRAM or CPU if it doesn’t for whatever particular model you’re using. It doesn’t do images I don’t think but there are other projects out there that simplify doing it using your own stuff.
I was meaning for mobile tech, running your own personal AI on your phone.
I’m glad we are finally treating phones like the mini computers they are, they should be free as in freedom just like’em.
