You can’t destroy a system billions of people depend on without killing billions of people. We need to learn to not depend on it first.
Our only hope is to culturally evolve past our current situation, and we’re kinda of in the process of that now. I’m almost 50, when I was growing up any talk like this was old hippy fantasy (hippies are 25 yrs older than me), but now it’s come back and more real than ever.
More and more people are seeing the police not as a helpful and necessary but as oppressors and sadists. Eating rich people is talked about every day. People are starting to realize that any state is inherently corruptible and if we want peace and sustainability we need to see the string of failures that is the state and realize it’s a failed technology.
At some point, hopefully we’ll get better at strategizing and acting instead of just complaining and protesting. Realistically using the tools we have available (e.g. the state) to put those currently running the system in their place.
Run for office, vote, be less dependent on the system, do mutual aid.
You can’t destroy a system billions of people depend on without killing billions of people. We need to learn to not depend on it first.
Don’t be so absolute. You can destroy capitalism very well without destroying the people within it.
Yep, as I suggested. But let’s not kid ourselves, most people talking online about destroying the system and aren’t joking are speaking of violent communist revolution a la the 1920s.
I’m not blanket supporting the end results of everything, but the “violence” in those revolutions was initiated by the existing states, not by the people doing the revolution. Read up about it. Almost every time the workers just required the obvious (not to be crushed underfoot) and started seizing factories and farms when life became intolerable, and then the state and the rich brought the police and the army to kill them. Sometimes the end result of the state oppression was people trying to survive and opportunist authoritarian leaders taking power, but not always.
True, the death toll in practice has only been in the range of 3.5 to 5 million in one case or 1 million up to many many more in another, with 20 million deaths being a probably-unlikely outlier estimate on the high side. I don’t think it’s ever killed billions or even close to it.
Not every revolution has to be an Marxist-Leninist revolution. Nor is the world the same. Not to mention that Capitalism is killing millions per month right now. You’re perfectly content to let Capitalism crush millions right now to maintain the benefits you have so you’re just a hypocrite on top of being intellectually dishonest by presuming every revolution will lead to totalitarianism.
You just send me on a rabbithole and Til
A part of the movement who’s nain motive was to maintain communism apparently included the creation of social classes…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Black_Categories
“Members of the Black Classes were systematically discriminated against, as one’s classification could affect employment opportunities and career prospects and even marriage opportunities. This could also be passed onto their children. Over time this resulted in a victimized underclass that was treated as if it were still composed of powerful and dominant people”
Literally facism… of course to some this was already apparent but with this information bring public its baffeling that so many still believe china is political left.
You can’t destroy a system billions of people depend on without killing billions of people. We need to learn to not depend on it first.
walkaway vibes. I wish this were practical.
Run for office, vote, be less dependent on the system, do mutual aid.
Indeed. We need to represent a better path than tearing down civilization in the hopes that everyone will get everything on their priority list, while tempering the state from the inside with sanity and decency instead of weaponization.
The purpose of a system is what it does.
If a system crushes orphans, its purpose is to crash orphans. The designers and participants may say otherwise, but they are ignoring the crushed orphans.
If I make a system to move people around, but this also sometimes leads to the death of people, that does not mean that the purpose is to kill people. It is still moving people around. And instead of ignoring this issue, we make the system better at avoiding accidents and increase safety aspects.
If a system moves people around and some of them die, that’s the purpose of the system.
You can say “we don’t want any of them to die” and that’s true, but the system doesn’t reflect that.
You can say “fewer people will die because more people can get to hospitals, but some will die as a result of people moving around” and the system will demonstrate that.
Is that a “we don’t want anyone to die” system or is it a “we are going to accept some people dying as a result of the system so that more people can be saved” system?
Okay, take the medical system. People die. But far less than without. Is the purpose of the system to kill people…?
Tge system moves people around at the cost of some dying. That may not be your intention, but it’s what the system does.
Not shutting down the system as soon as you realize it operates on blood means you’re ok with the amount of blood it’s consuming.
No, not at the cost of some dying. That just randomly happens. The same way anything happens while doing anything. Babies are born in airplanes. That does not mean that they are delivery rooms.
(Agreeing, not arguing) When something goes for so long with no amount of effort ever changing the thing beyond basically a coat of paint… Yeah, what it’s doing is clearly the point. A glitch is a glitch but if it’s still killing people next week, next month, next year… that’s obviously a feature.
Kinda ridiculous to expect people to be mandatorily opted-into a system meant to grind them up then be like “Oh don’t worry, it’s just in beta and you can submit a bug report if it kills you or something.” Yeah sure, it’ll be “fixed” any decade now. Just gotta keep paying no matter what doesn’t change and eventually something will change!
how do we strip down civilization/society - obviously, reign in the police but we’ll still need meter maids and rapist chasers (civil and criminal enforcement). so how does that work? I don’t ask as a challenge, I’m genuinely curious what the process looks like to those that want it, because all i can foresee is civil war hellscape if we stumble into it without a plan.
i read systemd
I thoughy I was at linuxmemes first. not that kind of system I see
The system for all its significant faults is the only thing stopping Amazon from employing literal slave labor in the US, or any Republican who can pay / attract enough violent followers from firebombing every abortion clinic they can find the location of. Dangerous inequality of power isn’t something the Americans created; it’s a feature of the world which needs to be grappled with and moderated (whatever means you set out to use to do that.)
I’m not sure what you mean by “destroyed,” but revolutions which set out to thoroughly destroy the unjust system completely have a track record of making things much much worse (e.g. French Revolution, Russian Revolution). If that type of thing is what you mean by destroyed I would urge you to look at places where what you want to do has been tried, and what happened after.
By that argument, the American revolution shouldn’t have happened either. It’s patently absurd to claim all revolutions always lead to the same results.
Removing a foreign occupier through violent revolution actually has a pretty good track record, yes (markedly different from destroying an unjust domestic system through violent revolution.)
Which one are you advocating for within the meme? Or something else? “Must be destroyed” can mean a few different things, all the way from FDR or Bernie Sanders which I’d be in favor of all the way to Russian Revolution which I’m not. I’m sort of just taking a guess at what it might be and responding based on the guess, but yeah I’m open to hear more explanation.
Removing a foreign occupier through violent revolution actually has a pretty good track record, yes (markedly different from destroying an unjust domestic system through violent revolution.)
You realize that Britain was not a “foreign occupier” at that point, yes? Likewise, most liberal democracies you have now are results of revolutions against the monarchies. Exactly how do you think the world changed from monarchic feudalism to capitalist democracy? Magic? The Kings abdicated because they were all just nice people?
Which one are you advocating for within the meme?
You’re in an anarchist server talking to an anarchist. Take a wild guess :D
The American Revolution didn’t destroy the existing system, it replaced the British control of the colonies with a federal control of the States, each of the colonial governments had a fairly smooth transition to state government, using the existing structure and most of the same people.
Please don’t take this as anything other than a legitimate inquiry, as that’s how i intend it.
If we’re claiming that all of this bad is by design, and the point of the revolution was to create this system, then aren’t you saying that the revolution was wrong? Like, the founders intended to replace a monarchical people moving machine that killed some of the people and replaced it with a democratic one that kills some of the people. If they designed it that way, then the revolution was pointless, and if they didn’t design it that way, then the argument that the suffering is a feature (instead of a consequence) is demonstrably wrong…what am I missing?
